Speaker 1: 0:24

Hello and welcome to Bodyholic With Di. This is episode number 24. My name is D Katz-Sachar and I am a public health promoter. I've attained my MPH from Tel Aviv University on the research track. I'm a fitness trainer with 18 years of experience and I hold specializations in corrective exercise, women's fitness and pilates. I'm also the founder and trainer of Bodyholic With Di, the Global Health and Fitness Platform and Community, and I'm the author of Rip it Up for Good.

Speaker 1: 0:55

This podcast is a part of my effort and mission as a public health professional, because I believe that real science based information and knowledge is power, and my job in this life is to empower you. I want you to have high and sustained energy throughout the day and I want you to feel better than you have ever felt before, during and after your workouts, in and out of your clothing, and not only physically, but mentally and emotionally as well. Interviewing Omri Porat was so refreshing and such a pleasure. I believe that listening to our talk will make you feel the same way. Omri is a registered dietitian. He works with children, adolescents and adults.

Speaker 1: 1:43

Omri is also the founder of Nut Ratio and what it is? It's an advanced software for enhancing dietitian's expertise and he and I discuss the software for all you dietitians out there listening in, but our conversation goes way beyond. We get into nutritional misconceptions, even a few that are extremely dangerous. Omri managed to even tap into my own emotions, but I will let the interview speak for itself. Please listen and spread his positive, healthy and admirable words. Enjoy.

Speaker 2: 2:22

Omri Porat. How are you?

Speaker 3: 2:25

I'm great. Thank you very much, D. How are you?

Speaker 2: 2:28

I'm well and I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you so much for joining.

Speaker 3: 2:33

Thank you for inviting me.

Speaker 2: 2:35

It's really a pleasure, and let's tell everybody why I'm so excited that you're here. Maybe you can provide a little bit of an overview of the software that you've developed for dietitians and its main features.

Speaker 3: 2:53

Yeah, sure. So I'm a dietitian myself and I've developed a nutritional software for dietitians. As you said, the software does two main things the first is taking care of the aspects of running patients, running customers, the logistics aspects, and the second, and most important, is the professional. The software provides with lots of formulas and data sets that are clinically reachable and my clinically, I mean during a session, during a treatment time, while you're sitting with a patient, because you can't use lots of tools. That takes you a lot of time and distracts you from the treatment, even if they exist. And what I meant to do was to create something, a tool that provides you with all the necessary things in a single place, which is not common, and, moreover, that these tools will be so intuitive and so easy to use that they will take you at least the least time possible in order for them to be used during a session. And I think it was achieved.

Speaker 2: 4:32

It's like a one-stop shop for dietitians.

Speaker 3: 4:36

Yeah, that was the purpose and yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 4:42

Yeah, and user friendly. So here's what really caught me when we last spoke how does your software actually ensure assessments or accuracy for dietitians during a diagnosis, or understanding the patient a little bit more? How does it really support them?

Speaker 3: 5:08

Yeah, sure. So, as I've said previously, there are many tools that dietitians can use in order to assess and get a diagnosis of the patient. Now, most of them are formulas or, for instance, I will give you an example. There are ways to assess the body composition of a person. I mean you can use a scale that does that, such as Danita or Inbody or Seca or all sorts of names that manufactures scales that does that. But you can also calculate it with a caliper.

Speaker 3: 5:56

You pinch the skin folds in various places in the body and you can calculate it. And if you do it well and you know what you're doing, it's quite accurate. But you need formulas in order to convert the skin folds to a body composition, to a fat percentage. So this is one example. Another example is, once you've obtained the body composition, you want to calculate the energy expenditure. Now, you don't have to have the fat percentage, but it really provides more accuracy to the calculations. And calculating an energy expenditure is not quite simple as it may sound, because it's something that is being done quite widely. It is widely used a thing to do, but not everyone knows how to do it accurately, and if you do it accurately, it's usually time consuming. So there are many rules of thumbs on how you can calculate the total energy expenditure, but most of them so inaccurate that it's best not to use them at all than to use them inaccurately. So this is a second example. The third example Can I just pause you for one second.

Speaker 3: 7:19

Yeah, sure.

Speaker 2: 7:20

Total daily energy expenditure is basically the calories that we burn, the energy that we burn throughout the day. That includes the basic metabolic rate and includes the exercise. So it's everything everything that we burn in a day.

Speaker 3: 7:42

Yeah, precisely, you're actually pointing out something very interesting, because there is a misconception or misunderstanding regarding how to calculate, because there are many formulas. When you type energy expenditure, human energy expenditure in the internet, you will most probably probably receive a formula to calculate the basal metabolic rate.

Speaker 3: 8:08

Okay, the energy expenditure that a human spend during 24 hours, during an entire day, while without any movement and no eating. Because eating burns calories, burns calories precisely, and movement also. You need to be in total rest. That is why it's called basal or resting metabolic rate. These are interchangeably concepts or definitions. Have a good day, all right. Many people mistake to think that if the basal metabolic rate is, let's say, like 1200 calories a day, which is a very common number for small women, if they are tall women it's larger, it's higher than that. If they are men, it's definitely higher than that. Many people think that if they already spend the time and effort to to think out their energy expenditure and found that it is 300 calories, then they get nervous that they shouldn't eat much. Well, this is only the basal metabolic rate. It can be one and a half times higher or 1.7 times higher. It could easily be 2000 calories a day, even for women if she's normally active. So this causes a lot of misconception when you don't know how to seek out this basic information.

Speaker 2: 9:53

One second. Let me calm him down. This is also so important. I knew something was going to happen in the way to make him do that.

Speaker 3: 10:07

You want me to repeat?

Speaker 2: 10:09

The last sentence. I got most of what you said and the last sentence yes, sorry.

Speaker 3: 10:16

Lots of people if they try to seek this information in order to do something with themselves. They want to get in shape, they want to be healthier and they start to seek how can I get in shape, how can I lose weight? So they found on the internet that they need to know how much energy they burn, to cut from there, how much they need to calculate their intake. It can get very misleading if you don't understand what you're looking for. So the buzzer metabolic rate is just a part. The net, the non-excessive activity, thermogenesis is the second part and physical activity is the third part.

Speaker 3: 11:06

Now, in order to calculate all of these steps, usually the atomic effect of food is not calculated because, although it is part of the energy expenditure, it is mostly influenced by the eating. So it's mostly influenced by the intake part. It's not influenced by our body weight or composition or by our actions. So this is why it's not calculated, although it could be if you want to be very accurate. But it doesn't usually amount to more than 10% of the total energy expenditure, so it can be neglected anyway, and anyway it's neglected to the worth. I mean, it only adds energy expenditure to what we already calculated. So if a person wishes to lose weight, then it works in the favor of him to not calculate it anyway.

Speaker 2: 12:06

Right right, right right.

Speaker 3: 12:11

So, as I've said, this is an example for something that is quite complex If you want to do it accurately, and it can be achieved in several seconds. I mean less than a minute to correctly get this information with Nutratio.

Speaker 2: 12:35

The name of you just said it. The name of your software is called Nutratio right.

Speaker 3: 12:41

That's correct, yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:45

Yeah, continue.

Speaker 3: 12:47

You wanted to tell. Yeah, it has many, several meanings. I mean, first of all, it's close to nutrition, which is what we do. But I also like the part that it's a nut ratio. There are lots of functionalities and functions and it's like nuts. The software is quite overwhelming. If you're a dietician and you get to see it, I mean, lots of dieticians are overwhelmed, but what can be done with it?

Speaker 2: 13:30

By its user-friendly.

Speaker 3: 13:32

Yeah, that's, that was the main goal. That was the basic, one of the pillars, of the principle that guided us how to create it.

Speaker 2: 13:46

It must have been user-friendly. Right, and this is really important for us to make a note here and say that right now, the software is all in Hebrew.

Speaker 3: 13:58

That's correct. Yes, From the start there was an intention to go international and it was built in order to be able to do that. It's still something that is very, very much in our plans, but at least for the near and the close future, it's not the next move.

Speaker 2: 14:23

Right, but it's coming. It's coming because people who are going to listen to this, they're going to want to get their hands on it, so the English is going to come.

Speaker 3: 14:33

Yeah, this is the purpose, yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:36

Yeah, I have to back up and just say that the previous things you were saying about the basal metabolic rate and the 1200 and 1300 calories that if you just kind of look online that's what shows up that's actually a very dangerous misconception and, in my opinion and from what I understand, you agree with me and so and I think that it would also maybe behoove us to emphasize that if you are out or seeking to lose weight, first of all maybe consult with actually someone who has the knowledge and credentials. Do you want to say a few words about that? Yeah?

Speaker 3: 15:37

Yeah, yeah, sure this is, thank you. This is a very important aspect of the nutritional care because, although the addition work in lots of settings and lots of audiences, the most abundant, the most common treatment is weight, overweight, obesity. And when you're addressed to treat that, there are many things to take under consideration the feelings of the person, what drives him to eat, what they choose to eat, while they when they wish to eat, and a lot of aspects that are complex and require the human connection and require the attitude and the intelligence of the person. But and this is a big but there is a major part of the nutritional treatment for overweight and obesity that is, that relies on the, on the mathematical part, and I'll explain because this sounds while this can be sound a bad thing, it's actually a good thing because A well-based diet that aims to lose weight doesn't have to be hard.

Speaker 3: 17:10

It doesn't necessarily have to be difficult, it doesn't necessarily have to involve pain or in-confrontness or to struggle, because when you calculate correctly what a person expands, the energy that a person expands during the day and what he eats, you often find out that the gap that needs to be achieved in order for him to effectively lose weight is not that hard to achieve. Many times it's even the contrary. What I mean is a person can try so hard to lose weight that he inflicts himself with a harsh diet that he cannot stand for a long time. Every other day or every several days, he just needs to eat something very, very large, mostly even unintentionally, even unplanned. This by himself is a bad event, because it lets him feel like he's no good, like he's a mediocre or a loser, like he can't achieve what he aimed for.

Speaker 3: 18:31

It raises many bad internal voices, while the reason for it is being too hard on yourself. It actually takes more motivation and more willpower than usual in order to get to the situation in the first place. Very hardworking people, very successful people may get into this situation where they drive themselves to a point that they simply let the body downgrade to its most basic needs, to its most survival instincts, and just drive into it without a lot of thoughts. And let there be no mistakes, the body can choose to eat if we drive them hard enough to this point that it breaks. And there are actually genes that awake that code for proteins in an emergency state that simply drive us to do things we are not intentionally meant to that are not in sync, not in sync with our wishes.

Speaker 2: 19:56

That's like what I've heard clients describe, kind of where they say I don't even know what just happened, but I just went on a full blown binge. Is that kind of?

Speaker 3: 20:08

This is a very more extreme example of what I'm saying, but, yes, exactly that, precisely that. And when a person sometimes don't understand that, instead of trying to eat so much, the difference between what he really needs to eat and what he actually tries to eat is so big that if the difference will be smaller, he will achieve his goals and will be happier doing so. I will give you a live example. I had once a customer that came to me with his son. Two parents sat with me and their son, an adolescent, and we had a talk and they were so impressed with the conversation that the father asked me to help him also. Now, this was a huge man. He was high, very tall, almost in meters it's 190, 190 meters and it was very broad person. I mean not just not with the stomach, I mean he was very muscular and he was a handyman. He worked with, I mean, lift tools. That weighs several kilograms during the day. This is what he does without even the workout. And so he told me when we sat together. He told me that he once had a.

Speaker 3: 21:41

He was inside of a process that he ate 1800 calories a day and he actually succeeded losing weight, but it stopped at some time and he couldn't do it again. He couldn't return to it. So he asked me what am I doing wrong? How can I do it again? I said first of all, you need to eat almost double this amount in order to lose weight. He said no way, man, you shit me.

Speaker 3: 22:21

And I showed him. And I showed him the calculation I made. I said look, this is what your daily expenditure is. It's like way above 4000 calories a day, way above it. And telling him that he needs to eat 3000 calories a day was even being harsh with him. I mean, he could have eaten more and still lose weight. But I told him I don't want to scare you, I don't want you to eat a lot of food, so I will give you only that and we'll start with that Now. First of all, I couldn't possibly have the confidence to tell him something like that if I didn't calculate myself. And he would never have listened to me if I didn't show him the calculation.

Speaker 2: 23:12

I was going to say to you one of the cool things about your tool is that you show the data very clearly.

Speaker 3: 23:25

Yes, yes, this is also one of the main goals that we aim to achieve, precisely yes, thank you for saying that.

Speaker 2: 23:32

Yeah, I was going to get to that a little bit later, but the story that you were saying was like mind blowing, because, of course, when you're telling me about his height and what he does, and then you tell me 1800 calories a day, I'm like that's like telling, that's like the equivalent to 1200 calories, just you know for, or even less.

Speaker 3: 23:53

Yeah, even less, even less, yes. So, relatively, you realize it's wrong, but you can point, you can pinpoint the precise where it is wrong, because you know it's not right, but you can say why. So if you calculate it, you can say why.

Speaker 2: 24:12

We're right, do you? You can totally say no, but I've seen your software and I'm wondering do you want to maybe show an example of this so that everybody can be as blown away as I am?

Speaker 3: 24:28

Yes, please. So I will share the screen. Now I just want to say, to say one thing how can I show? Share the screen.

Speaker 2: 24:38

Oh, you know what I need to hold on? I need to make you, I need to do this.

Speaker 3: 24:46

Great, there we go. So I will just say one of the things one can ask is how can it be that you, you're if I'm returning to the example I gave how can it be that you're telling me to eat so much? I don't eat that much anyway. I mean, how can it be possible for me to lose weight if I'm going to eat more? Well, I've said this is not more than you usually eat, because usually his buzzer thing is very small, because it tries excuse me, he's trying to lose weight, so it's less than he should. And then he comes home and he comes very, very hungry and he can eat enormous amounts. Now, this is more.

Speaker 2: 25:37

Take your time, excuse me.

Speaker 3: 25:41

Okay, take your time.

Speaker 3: 25:43

This is more advanced to realize, but when you feed the body with less food than he needs, he will take the energy anyway. He will take it, if you give it or not. Now, the main resource for the body to get energy is not fat, ironically as it may be it's the muscle mass. The muscle mass, the body can convert proteins much quicker and more efficiently than you can do with fat. Really, yeah, yeah, it is more easy. Wow, yeah, that's what happens exactly when you eat less than you should. The body turns muscle mass into energy, to available energy in the form of carbohydrates.

Speaker 2: 26:37

Great, I just didn't know that it was easier than fat for the body.

Speaker 3: 26:44

Yeah, it requires less stages in the process. It's much easier for the body. What happens is the body releases stress hormones mainly adrenaline and cortisol and the cortisol is responsible for the breakdown of muscle proteins into amino acids. The amino acids return with the bloodstream to the liver. The liver converts them into carbohydrates. The nitrogen leftover is going to the kidneys. The kidneys move it to the urine and get rid of it. This is the process. It's much easier, as difficult as it may sound, than breaking down fat. Now, if you come to think about it, it's quite interesting because, if you come to think about it, we act the same with our money. If you have $100,000 in your back account for savings and you're running through difficulties, in a specific month you expanded more than you earned and you're in a minus $1,000. $500 this month. No one will break $100,000 savings for $500 deficit. You will wait for the next payment, you will get over it and you will move on. Now we will pay a small increase. How do you say?

Speaker 2: 28:23

Interest.

Speaker 3: 28:24

Yeah to the bank forgiving you $500 while you didn't have them, but you will go on. It's a small, you won't suffer from it a lot, you will save. You will live the $100 safely in the bank. Now this is what happens when we don't eat as we should. We lose a little protein and we get it back the next meal. What happens is that the body gets used to living with smaller amounts of energy. He has many processes that he can do in order to achieve that. Now you give him less energy than he should. He lives on little amounts of proteins each day. By the way, he gets very good at it. The processes that are responsible to do that are getting efficient the more you do it. This is why people that maintain a very strict because this is not my intention I will say very orderly or expected, expected diet no, this is not the right word. But if they maintain a daily diet that they can expect and they can that is a kind of repetitive.

Speaker 3: 29:59

Yeah, repetitive and coincides with their needs. So if you will someday I don't know, the lunch will will delay and they can't get their usual meal. They will get very hungry. I mean, they won't cope with it very well Because their body, their body isn't used to living on proteins as a resource of energy. But if you're used to not eating breakfast and skipping lunch and the first meal is in five o'clock, I mean you don't have any problem to do it the next day. Also it's not a problem.

Speaker 3: 30:35

And I will get back to what I said when people don't eat as much as they should, the body lives on the small, small amounts of protein. It gets it back the next meal, but it gets so hungry that it's more than it should, mostly in the evening. And then, when the body's already used to living on smaller amounts than you should, he says, well, great, I have lots of energy, I don't have anything to do with it, I will just save it. And so the muscle mass decreases and the fat mass increases. And there's actually this is a very interesting subject we can go on for.

Speaker 2: 31:12

I'm. I was going to say like you and I have to set up a lot more meanings because, like you've been blowing my mind since we started talking.

Speaker 3: 31:23

Right, thank you, but I will stop here and I will just say that if, if we return to this example, what I'm telling the, the, the, the, when I told the man and this is only one example, that that encompasses lots of others If you eat this this way, if you eat like I'm telling you to, I'm suggesting you to eat, then you will see, that will be, you will come calmer to the evening and will eat less and your muscle mass will grow and your energy expenditure will be better than it currently is and you will actually lose weight.

Speaker 3: 31:59

And that's exactly what happened. Now, I must say, before we move on to the example you asked me to, to show you that I usually do not put out strict menus to people. This is not something I believe in. Even if I do it in the starting of a session, of a process, like, like I just mentioned, it's only for the gaining of confidence. Like this man, he didn't have any confidence that I'm telling you, that I'm telling him he needs to eat 3000 calories a day. So I told him eat exactly what I'm telling you. You will see that what you want to happen will happen, and then we'll talk about more freely eating and the way people should eat, without any restrictions, but the free.

Speaker 2: 32:43

The freedom was scaring him.

Speaker 3: 32:45

Yeah, the freedom and and the fact that it seemed a lot to him. But people actually should eat freely, I mean in a certain certain order that is comfortable for them, but freely to choose. So this this was also trying to say that. I was also trying to say that when advising people on how to eat, usually being strict is a bad thing, unless it serves a proper purpose, like the one I've mentioned to gain confidence in oneself and in the in the food.

Speaker 2: 33:29

This is your. This is so important. I have to be honest with you I kind of want to cry. This is, like, so important and the people who have worked closely with me know that I can get pretty strict and and and people who are close to me in general know that I've never been diagnosed only, but I'm pretty sure there might be a little bit of OCD when it comes to food, where I'm like, where I'm like these are molecules, man just going to eat the molecules.

Speaker 2: 34:06

What's going to serve my workout and muscle. But, but that's not true for everyone, and and and. Right now, by the way, now that I'm in my second trimester of pregnancy, it's certainly not true for me. I threw everything out the window, everything out the window, and and. But it's so important to hear these words from someone as knowledgeable as you, who changes people's lives on a regular basis when it comes to diet, which, which is, which is huge. I mean, food meets us in every single space in our lives. So I'm sitting here and I'm just thinking like I'm going to highlight this part when I put it on social media, and then I'm like, no, I'm going to highlight this part, no, that, everything you're saying is just so, so, so important.

Speaker 3: 35:02

Thank you very much.

Speaker 2: 35:03

Thank you.

Speaker 3: 35:04

And this is. This is great. I must say that I actually have a package of napkins on my table, because people often break to think that they spent years fighting against themselves only to find out that there's another way and it can get people once. One time I had a couple that the men came to me. He waited 170 kilograms. I don't know how many pounds that is, but it's a lot. That's a lot. It's a lot of pounds, yeah. And when I diagnosed it him, he said there with his wife, and I diagnosed it him and I told him what he should eat. And before that I told him why he can't manage to lose weight, because he was one of the strictest person I've ever met with his food. Now it was the most dephotomic. Can you say dephotomic in English?

Speaker 2: 36:10

Diacotomy.

Speaker 3: 36:12

Diacotomy yes.

Speaker 2: 36:14

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:15

Like very polar.

Speaker 2: 36:18

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:18

With his behavior. He was the strictest for a time and the loosest in other times, and I said this is not different parts of you, it's the same part. This completes this and if you stop fighting yourself, you won't have to be like this. And his wife break down and cried. I mean, she said we've spent years trying to get him better and we've lost hope that it can be achieved. And the meeting, the right person that will see you and understand it is quite important. And the tools in order to visualize and make it more understandable and realistic. And it's also important and this is my aim. This is what I've tried to achieve. And I must say something in regards to what you've said, which is very interesting that you are very strict and you threw it all out of the window. This is not bad to discover what is best for you in this journey of life, when sometimes you're behaving this way and sometimes behaving very differently, and this is not bad to do both.

Speaker 2: 37:41

Right. I have to say that I have no qualms about it. Like I, once, I started getting nauseous in the beginning of the pregnancy. It didn't even had no guilt, no, nothing. I was eating ice cream. I have ice cream dates with my four and a half year old daughter and I don't think twice about it. It's like, of course, this is what I'm going to do and, you know, at a different point it'll probably change, because I just know myself and I know my patterns. But it's very interesting and I just want to say that I calculated 170 kilos, just so that everybody understands what that means is 375 pounds. That's really. You were dealing with a man who who was not healthy at all.

Speaker 3: 38:32

Yeah, yeah, and it was so. It felt like he doesn't live in his body. I mean, he was a true guy, he instructed, but not the kind of driving in a bus and looking at the out of the window. I mean he works. He works with people every day. This is was this? That was a very unusual case.

Speaker 2: 39:01

Yeah, that's also life changing for him, because I mean he probably prior to meeting you there was a lot of knee pain, a lot of back pain. I mean is if he's walking around with all that weight.

Speaker 3: 39:14

Yeah, yeah, precisely, yeah, that's correct yeah. Wow.

Speaker 2: 39:23

Yeah, what you're doing.

Speaker 3: 39:24

Thank you, thank you very much. I appreciate it, very, very, I really appreciate it. Now you asked me sorry. Do you want to ask something else?

Speaker 2: 39:33

because you want me to show you my yeah, let's see the kind of thing that you show a patient who needs convincing.

Speaker 3: 39:43

Yeah, so I will share my screen and this is my software called Nutratio, and there are. There are logistics, things that can be achieved, I mean like a calendar and patients and filtering them, like the number of meetings and such such. These are a imaginary patient, these are not real. This is an example account, but if you go, if we go, for example, to to Optimus Prime, we will see that oh, I see, I think my I'm inside, I went upstairs and the internet connection is not as good as downstairs. Okay, the Zoom meeting and I went away from the Wi-Fi connection.

Speaker 3: 40:46

So here we can see, for an instance, for example, that these are several meetings that mean this imaginary patient had, and at first sight this looks like a mess. I mean you can't understand much. But if we break it down to weight only, we can see that this patient has lost. He started from 105.2 kilograms and ended up at 91.5. Now we can say that he crossed during this weight loss, he crossed the obesity threshold and became overweight. Now another interesting thing to see is that his fat mass was 35.3 at the beginning and 16.7 at the end. Now he passed two thresholds from being obese in the form of fat in his body to being a normal fat.

Speaker 3: 41:57

Now, this is something that is not very common, but this is not imaginary. I have seen this more than once and more than twice in my clinic. People can gain muscle mass doing weight loss. This is not the common thing you will see, but if a person, for example, he was in his past someone who worked out and he didn't work out for a long time and he eats very poorly, very unnamed, very un I forgot the word In a manner that doesn't match his needs Okay, very unsuitable for his needs and start to eat better and working out and his body remembers that he was working out before, then he can actually gain weight while losing muscle mass, while losing weight while losing fat. This is not imaginary at all.

Speaker 2: 43:00

So right, it's like the fantasy of anybody who wants to get that physique of looking good, losing fat.

Speaker 3: 43:13

And, by the way, when we talked about the former example, I mean when a person doesn't eat during the day as much as he needs. When he comes home, all he wants to do is eat because he's starving. Now, either he's starving and he doesn't have any power to go to exercise, or he's after his big meal and now he's full and he doesn't have the power to go and exercise. Now, if he eats more, his routine is more balanced during the day. Then he can come home and work out and sit down and eat and he also feels better and he can. This is not imaginary again.

Speaker 2: 43:55

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 43:56

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:56

Amazing.

Speaker 3: 43:58

So now, when we look at all the graphs together, this makes a lot of sense because we see the weight comes down, the fat comes down even faster, while the muscle mass goes up.

Speaker 2: 44:11

Right, right, right Amazing.

Speaker 3: 44:15

There are lots of conclusions that can be drawn from here. For instance, the muscle mass alone, the lean body mass, the mass that doesn't have any fat in it. Okay, because the weight is the sum of the fat mass and the fat free mass, or the lean body mass.

Speaker 3: 44:33

These are interchangeable concepts. They have a little difference, but we won't get into that. Okay, the fat free mass and the fat mass together sums up to the total weight. Now we can see in this person. Again, this is imaginary, but this is not imaginary data. I mean, I've seen people with muscle mass, with fat free mass that is more than the threshold for overweight. This is the orange line, the threshold for overweight. This is the person's weight and this is the threshold for overweight. The fat free mass alone is almost as high as this threshold. Now, this is a very important thing to see, because if this person says, hey, man, look, I want to be lean, I want to be. If the normal weight for a person in my height is between 57 and 77 kilograms, I will make it larger. I want to weight 70 kilograms. Now his fat free mass alone is 74.8, almost 75 kilograms of fat free mass.

Speaker 3: 45:52

This person can never be 70 kilograms, unless he starves himself for months, right, right.

Speaker 2: 46:02

And so basically the threshold and also BMI, I guess is a little misleading. Yeah precisely, and this breakdown is really crucial, so that, like, for instance, you see bodybuilders who weigh so much and I don't know how much fat they have on them, but we're talking about for men, maybe less than 7% easy less than 7%. For women maybe less than 17%, which is very, very low, but they weigh the same as someone who, you would say, with more fat on them, and so the BMI it's a little bit of a problematic number, isn't it?

Speaker 3: 47:01

Yeah, it's problematic in the way that it doesn't encapsulate the entire picture. It's part of the picture. It's an important part, by the way. It's an important thing to recognize and to take under consideration, but it's not the only part. Now it gains so much popularity and so much importance because it's so simple to calculate. You just need to heighten the weight. It's a simple calculation. You don't even need a computer, right? You don't even need a software, you just need a calculator. But it can be very misleading, just as you said Very interesting, by the way, it can go both ways.

Speaker 3: 47:53

I have seen a person in my own eyes that she had a normal weight. She weighted in the low class of the normal weight but had a fat percentage of obesity.

Speaker 2: 48:12

The fact called skinny fat.

Speaker 3: 48:14

Yeah, skinny fat, the worst I've seen. Skinny fat, oh wow. But or muscle? She was very sedentary in her lifestyle and smoked a lot and didn't eat much, mostly during the evening, and she was. I mean, she felt like she's okay because her BMI was normal, but it didn't reflect her body composition and her body situation.

Speaker 2: 48:45

So why did she come to you if she felt like she was okay?

Speaker 3: 48:49

She felt unhealthy and she wanted to improve herself.

Speaker 2: 48:52

So she did feel like something was.

Speaker 3: 48:54

She felt something is wrong.

Speaker 2: 48:56

Yeah, okay, but she thought that because of the being okay, yeah, cause I can imagine that she was probably really exhausted, didn't have much energy. That's what I'm imagining.

Speaker 3: 49:08

Yeah, your imagination is correct, right on the score. Now, if I put this on a graph, this is a graph of the changes, only the changes, only the delta between appointments. If you can see the weight went down and we can see the weight is going down, we can see each time how much. And the fat mass goes down and the muscle mass sometimes went up, sometimes went down. Now, if we sum it up, this is the accumulation of the changes. We can see in the end of the process that he only waited 13.7 kilograms less, but his fat mass was actually 18.7 less. And this person may come to you and say, man, I'm going through so much trouble, I'm putting all of myself into this process. No way, I've only lost 13.7 kilograms. I mean, something is wrong.

Speaker 2: 50:09

And then you show him this yeah. Yep.

Speaker 3: 50:14

So this makes people perceive their processes in a different light, in a different way and much healthier because-.

Speaker 2: 50:24

Yeah, yeah, this is a powerful visual, very powerful.

Speaker 3: 50:28

If you could not visualize this to the patient, he will say man, this is not for me, I'm leaving, I'm trying something else. I want to look. 30 kilograms Now. If you look at average processes, the average process of losing weight will include 25% of muscle mass loss. I mean, in an average process of losing 10 kilograms, 7.5 would be of fat mass and 2.5 kilograms will be of fat free mass or muscle mass, because you won't lose bones, you won't lose your brain, you won't lose your liver, you will lose muscle mass. So this process okay, let's round it up to 20 kilograms. Okay, this actually is closer to losing something like 25, even more, even more than 25 kilograms. But he only lost 13.7. So this shows how quality this process is. Now, again, these are imaginary datasets, but this is not imaginary process. So this is not imaginary process. This is not imaginary process. These are not imaginary datasets, but this is not imaginary process. The process I've seen such processes more than once and more than twice and I'm asking the patient are you feeling good?

Speaker 3: 51:57

Yeah, man, I'm feeling great. Okay, can you continue to do what you are doing now? I mean, do you want it to stop the minute you hit your goal weight. No, I'm feeling fine. I'm feeling better than ever. Just continue. Look how wonderful you are, and this also touches the part that's of maintaining the changes and not just achieving them.

Speaker 2: 52:23

Right.

Speaker 3: 52:26

So I didn't even touch the part of calculating the nutritional, because this is one crazy part. I mean, if you go to, I've increased the, this is one's menu. I mean, I can prepare menu. This takes very little amount of time to prepare menu, but we won't get into it, into it. I will just show that once I've created a menu and I can create substitutes to meals, I can replace their places and play with it around.

Speaker 3: 53:01

I can do many things, but if I look at the nutritional values, I can see there are lots of more than 140 nutritional values that Nutratio provides and I can also compare it to the nutritional needs of the person in front of me and I can show them look, you're eating a good amount of vitamin C. No, this is actually because I put your image on the screen right here, so you're not eating enough. Just by looking at this. By the way, I didn't I don't remember what's on the menu, but just by looking at this page I can tell what's missing in the person's menu. I mean, if it has little vitamin C, let's see the folic acid. Okay, folic acid is not bad. So he's probably eating less vegetables and fruits, but maybe in the realm of bread, it's a whole bread. Let's see the magnesium. Yeah, definitely Nuts and bread and a whole bread, but less vegetables and fruits. Let's see, because I don't remember his menu.

Speaker 2: 54:18

Yeah, this was interesting. I was looking at the sodium, which was too high. It's all very, very clear, yeah this is one.

Speaker 3: 54:26

Okay, you see there is nuts here and nuts here. These are dates, but dates don't have much vitamin C inside of them pure.

Speaker 3: 54:42

Okay, so the nuts gave him the folic acid, the magnesium, okay, but we can see right away. If I would have taken a diagnosis, an amnesis you call it in the nutritional language nutritional amnesis then you will very quickly see what's missing inside of his nutritional habits. So this is another example of the power that I have and not just intuitively ask the patient what he does in thinking what I should advise him. Right, you're looking at hard data.

Speaker 2: 55:19

Yeah, again, not to tell him, from now on you will eat only that, but you will eat only that.

Speaker 3: 55:26

But to open the mind for other things, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:32

And it's interesting because I think the what you're creating is a process that also enables and this, I think, is really important enables the patient to be really a part of it, and so it's very empowering, thank you, because when you're looking it in, you're showing the patient. It's almost like you're having a tea meeting.

Speaker 3: 56:01

Yeah, feels like that.

Speaker 2: 56:04

Yeah, that's really important because that's also, I believe, where medicine is, I hope, going. I don't think we're there yet. I think, from what I'm seeing, nutritionists and dietitians are more advanced in terms of looking at the patient and getting them more active and involved and empower them. This is really like a very empowering tool, very cool.

Speaker 3: 56:32

Yeah, actually, I have two screens in my clinic One is pointed to me and one is pointing to the patients.

Speaker 2: 56:41

Beautiful. Exactly there you go.

Speaker 3: 56:44

I'm not the only one who does that, by the way. I'm not the only one. It's not even my original idea. I saw it at the Yale Labs Clinic, which I admire and love very much, is a very valuable and appreciated colleague, one of the most appreciated in Israel. I saw it at his clinic and I really loved it. The fact that you can share with the patient and it feels total trust. It's not like I'm on my computer writing things to myself and it's like I hope he doesn't write them. I'm an idiot for what I just told him. You can see everything I write and do. Just like you said, it feels like a team meeting. Yeah, I really love this term.

Speaker 2: 57:34

Yeah, yeah, we're pretty much out of time. Yeah, this has been a most fascinating hour. I truly feel like you and I could definitely meet up on several different topics. What I want to say is, first of all, I really hope that this goes international, because it's big. Also, what we've touched on today is from patient empowerment to talking about the software. Really, we were talking to two different audiences here. Yeah, it was the professional dietitians and nutritionists and hopefully some doctors also medical doctors who could maybe pick up some information from this, because I think it's important, because I think doctors maybe use BMI a little bit more and the importance of nutrition needs to be a little bit more emphasized in medicine. But also just talking to the regular person who listens to the podcast, because this person likes to know how to better their well-being and health and physique and all that stuff, this was a really important episode. So thank you so so much for joining me.

Speaker 3: 59:13

Thank you. Thank you very much, D. Actually, you've touched on a very important point and, if I can elaborate a bit more, the fact that if the person listening to this great podcast I enjoy it very much is someone who looks for a get into a better place with himself, then knowing that you don't need to suffer in order to achieve that is a great message to take home. And if you're already involved with a person or seeking for a person that will guide you and help you with that, know that it doesn't have to be necessarily hard. On the contrary, I mean, a good process should be one that you can embrace with alignment with your needs and wishes. And the second thing to say is that if this is a professional dietician that listened to this podcast, then this really enables you things that by yourself you could have done intuitively, but probably less accurate and without seeing all the parts of the big picture.

Speaker 3: 1:00:30

And many times there are people if I'm coming back to what I've said earlier that I almost never give hard copy of a strict diet to persons unless I want them to gain confidence in this diet, and it's temporarily anyway. Many dieticians are in a niche of a non diet approach or the attitude is less related to calculation and they get the feeling that this is not for them because they don't want to calculate anyway. But even if you don't necessarily provide a calculated diet, a calculated menu to a person, knowing what he eats and knowing what he expands during the day is an important knowledge, no matter what you will do with it in the end. I mean, you don't have to convert this knowledge to actual menu. Just knowing it will open your mind and your patient's mind to what's better to do. What's the better approach than not knowing that and it takes several minutes during the session with Nutratio.

Speaker 2: 1:01:49

Bravo, tell me if people want to reach out to you. Is there a professional email that you prefer that people reach out to you, or social or anything?

Speaker 3: 1:02:07

like that. If you come to Nutratiocom, the contact details are in there, my phone. I'm almost always available by email, but any means you wish.

Speaker 2: 1:02:24

Okay, so that's going to be absolutely linked to the YouTube and also to the only listening podcast episode, omri. Thank you so so much. I'll be honest, I'm looking forward to our next episode.