Resilience, Hope, Trauma, and Healing: Navigating Life and Music Amidst the Israeli-Hamas Conflict with Naama Guggenheim

Di: 0:04

So Hello and welcome to Bodyholic with Di. Today we begin a special series called Creative Echoes Women Navigating Conflict Through Artistic Expression. This is a special series within Bodyholic with Di framework. We dive into the profound experiences of female artists in Israel amidst the ongoing conflict with Hamas. While I often discuss stress and trauma from a scientific perspective, the essence of the series lies in the genuine voices of those living through these challenging times. In a world where life in Israel and the experiences of Jews globally has become exceptionally challenging, we believe in the power of real, authentic narratives. Since the cacophony of male voices during wartime, we turn our attention to the voices of female artists, recognizing the cathartic and illuminating potential that their stories hold.

Di: 2:06

Joining us today is the incredibly talented Naama Guggenheim. She is an international singer-songwriter based in Israel, whose artistry adds a unique and powerful dimension to our exploration of resilience and hope amid the turmoil. Naama Guggenheim, hi, thank you so so much for joining me today and during this time that is extremely challenging for all of us. I really appreciate your time. Thank you for having me. I want us to start just with you talking about who you are and yourself a little bit, giving people a little bit of background and then we'll get into a little bit more of the nitty gritty Sure.

Naama: 3:03

So I'm a musician, I am born in Switzerland, raised in the US and Israel, like kind of like year to year. It's a really funky and funny story the way my adolescence developed, but eventually I would always, always, always call myself Israeli. I'm very proud of being Israeli and I served in the military and I was even an officer, so this isn't like a question mark around my story. And I'm a musician and always been one since age 12, developed fully around. You know, I'm 33, around age 23, I would say it developed fully and I started going to music school and making my own music.

Naama: 3:57

I was a singer for a while in different bands, different projects, and eventually none of them really, I would say, blew up to the point where I was satisfied. So I kind of decided to give it a go with my own materials. I'd written stuff since I was fairly young, around 15, 16. I play guitar, I play piano as well, but back then it was mainly guitar. And then I started releasing my music. I would say took took a while to get the sound. Once I got it the way I wanted and the way the people around me liked it as well, it kind of started developing a successful route in certain genres in certain countries, and I would call my musical journey like a slow one, like we're slowly, slowly growing, but definitely very proud of my accomplishments and my audience has been growing.

Naama: 5:09

I released an amazing Thank you, I released my first album in 2021. And that was because things were kind of developing to this kind of slow grow and an audience that wanted to see me play live in Europe and in Israel, but in Europe and I kind of was looking for doors and because I am naturally an adventurous person, I started, just you know, opening each door and I would say 2023 was my step up year. It was definitely an exciting one. I had, after a few solo tours in 2022 that were kind of small and sweet in Europe, 2023 was definitely larger ones. I had a month long tour in March and in July the 10 day one with festivals around Europe and getting personal invites from really renowned radio stations in Berlin and very, very, very exciting. And I am and I was working towards a second album and it's currently kind of being held back from different reasons which we'll get into, but yeah this is this.

Di: 6:42

Wow, I have to say. You know you're talking about 2021 versus 2023. And hearing that like 23 is a step up for you. You're currently let me just make sure that everybody's clear on this You're currently in Israel.

Naama: 6:59

I am, yeah. So this is a question I used to get a lot. Why do I? I used to get this from Israelis and Europeans alike why do I live here? Since I have this like national background, why do I even? Why would I stay? And I make music, mostly in English, which is also changing a little bit. The reason is is that I I feel comfortable in my own body, so it doesn't matter to me where I stand, if it's in Israel or for its other places, but I feel a certain connection to my heritage here. I'm a big, I'm a big believer in, in social connections and I'm a big believer in God as well, and and I am connected to, to those spiritual realms and to me, being in an artistic city, a global city like Tel Aviv, is very, very emotional and it has the reasoning behind. Being in Israel is connected, like to me, it's it's important. I want to be here. It's not it's not a, it's a choice. I would like to be connected and staying, stay put in this country, in this city, specifically.

Di: 8:22

Yeah, no question. And so so the going back to and I'm listening to you talk about 2023 and your rising success and you know I, of course, you know we're meeting in such a time where I don't think any of us fully believe and comprehend what 2023 means. So I'm curious and you already started touching on it how did the events of October 7th 2023 impact your journey? It sounds like it kind of put a stop on things, and is it is something evolving? Artistically in response.

Naama: 9:19

Yep, so I was supposed to. So I work with an agency, a local agency in Austria, and we've been actively planning a tour in Europe in Germany, denmark, france and Switzerland in April of 2024. And this type of thing takes time. You have to promote it, you have to release things you know and sign agreements and create. It takes around, fair, around a year, sometimes even more. There's, there's a venue there that's been waiting for my show for I think, about two years, actually like a year and eight months.

Naama: 9:59

So this, this was what was going on, and I was actually supposed to give an answer about a certain topic up until October 7th. So I was debating myself what to answer, what type of you know funds or or how I'm organizing whatever needs to be organizing throughout something that has to do with promoting that specific tour. So to me it was kind of like, kind of like a whole dug like midway where I don't know how to even comprehend how to go on, because I'm self managed, I do have different types of people who give me consultations or services and I did not know what to do. So I was kind of, and these people, the people who who I received services from, are not from here. So they have no idea what it actually feels, what war actually feels like Neither do I, by the way, and but I can kind of relate to what's going on and they don't have the the capacity to understand, for example, the things that might come out of this, which is, you know, I would need security, I would need different, different things that that all of a sudden are now more with a, with kind of a light shed on them, that I'm still in question with, so I would say, a whole cloud of confusion around things that were planned and I already have, not I wouldn't say half of my album, but almost half of my album recorded.

Naama: 12:01

So anything that has to do with them, For example mixing services and mastering services, which is kind of like the last stop before you release, that stuff costs money and, and these are things I I had to put a stop to. So they're kind of like floating these songs that I'm so proud of, and the new, the new developed sound that I had is kind of just, you know, kind of just like floating up there.

Di: 12:31

I don't know.

Naama: 12:32

I'll ever release it when, when's a good time to release it, like I I myself I'm not relating to those songs right now. So I'm kind of like, okay, what am I supposed to do? Like who who can give me answers around it right now, and just kind of decided to put a stop to it. So that's in that sense and in the creative sense, kind of immediately the things that come out are in Hebrew, which is not. No, I wouldn't say it's a bad thing, because I did this in my first album too, and I was already planning on combining languages. I did this, I combined languages in my first album, kind of like as a, as a seasoning, like a little bit here, a little bit here.

Naama: 13:20

And I was definitely in my creative journey, growing on being the bilingual person that I am. So and I you know, me and my brothers we speak like half Hebrew, half English, and I was really set on creating that out there. Or like I speak some French and I and I speak, I have some friends or I speak French with. So it was really important to me to have that global sense. But as if, as if I was only, like you know, a one language person. It was just kind of like Hebrew. I want to. I want to make my, my Israeli identity clear. I want it to be out there and I feel like heavily connected to anything Israeli, jewish. Right now. It's like really, really in my bones.

Naama: 14:15

So that's creatively, that's where I was going so, so actually, the only song that's been worked on lately is the one that I started writing about, I guess a week or two weeks after the war started, and then, you know, we're musicians, were a community, so I sent it to some friends were and we start producing it together and it was, all you know, pro bono, no one's like in the, in the rush to make money out of it, which is very, very different than what normally would happen, but it was kind of like a healing journey. So that's that's also in the works. Hopefully will release in the next two weeks or so.

Di: 14:59

Yeah, because now, now I can't wait to hear it. Can you? Can you, maybe and this is this is a personal question but maybe, and you can, you know, steer clear and how are? However you feel is is just fine.

Di: 15:20

I can say a few words about your intersection between personal trauma and the creative process and because, because I was listening to some of your music which, by the way, is is so cool, like it's, it's got such a cool vibe to it, like I can so see you, I can so see myself rather, just listening to you in a club you know, I'm thinking New York or right now, just like, just like you're feeling, I'm like, yeah, let's keep it in Tel Aviv and listening, and I'm listening and just like vibing with you, because it really is everything you do has such a cool sound to it. And so I'm curious about the intersection between your personal trauma and the creative process and and how you express the emotions and kind of taking it a step aside from the national crisis and the international crisis and kind of focusing on you for a moment. What's what's interesting to me about interviewing artists who are very active in their art is kind of like the cathartic experience as well.

Naama: 16:42

Yeah, I mean I would say anything I write about or create music around, or not even just music. Like I wrote a poem a few days ago that was like okay, that I have to to put it up on social media. It's I write from a very personal standpoint. So even if it's, even if it seems like it's like this national thing, it's mostly just me writing about my own experience or me shedding light on an experience that feels like it's touching me. So that would always be no matter, would always be my perspective.

Naama: 17:18

And yeah, and generally speaking, I'm a person, I'm a sensitive person, so I tend to kind of get a get a glimpse of someone's emotion, reaction, and I immediately take it on to myself. So, and I'm an optimist, so I normally, normally would want to look at the brighter side and see like, for example, the song that's going to come out is like more about the love around it, like love in the, in the shadow of war kind of thing, and like seeing all these like beautiful men who are all of a sudden in uniform and it's like it's. It's a completely different perspective, but it's still. You know, I talked about the reserves. I thought so it's still, it's still war, but it's definitely kind of like the dreamy type of scenario inside the situation.

Di: 18:18

I would say also the.

Naama: 18:20

To me there's a big difference between this, my songs who are a bit more stripped down, like I would say maybe a guitar or just a piano plus voice or maybe a few little sounds or kind of more natural sounds, as opposed to the kind of more more work your sounding songs, which are a bit more my. My move between confidence and sensitivity is like I guess that's where I stand. I'm always like either like whoa, let's do this, or just like hyper sensitive within myself. So I would say like my creative process jumps between the two. It's either like let's do this, let's get this, like really cool sounding feminine vibe going and the sensitive part of like I was hurt by this thing or that thing, or I'm still trying to figure this thing out creatively. That's where I always stand and, and I guess, like throughout the past month and a half within writing, I'm more on on the side of a feeling stripped down, sensitivity, like not no, no, no masks, no, like coolness around it, just putting out whatever comes out. You know what I mean.

Di: 19:54

Yeah yeah, I think vulnerability is the situation for maybe most people, but you know I don't want to speak for everyone, but that's definitely the vibe I'm getting from my surroundings and the challenges that the Israeli civilians during this period have experienced the Southern Israeli civilians and the people who went to the Nova party these are challenges that I personally can't fully fathom.

Di: 20:38

It's immense and the trauma as a nation and, by the way, when I say nation, I want to be really clear anybody who defines themselves as Israeli, so it doesn't matter to me what religion I think we're dealing with a trauma that currently is unbearable. Like, we talk a lot about the fact that we're not post trauma, yet Unfortunately, we've already seen consequences that are devastating from people who have survived, but in general, as a nation, we're not post trauma. We're absolutely in it. It's just an unfathomable situation and what struck me in what you were talking about was the kind of that optimistic point of view and would you say that there's my favorite word in the world is resilience. Would you say that you're coping through the art, that it's a form of coping mechanism that is allowing you to kind of deal with the trauma and grow your resilience.

Naama: 22:10

You know it's funny. I think we're a very resilient nation, to begin with, because we're always being like so well, not even just like a nation, just like, even if, as you were speaking, the one thing that came to mind was Israeli women who we were like. The amount of pain, the amount of like. I can't even explain the severity of how rough it is right now to see what's going on, to even understand what's going on, because we've been through something that absolutely no one should go through Like. This isn't like a question. Like no one in the world I stand behind this should experience what we've experienced. And then, on top of that, get victim blame and victim shame around. It is absolutely terrifying and it makes you feel like whoa, I am alone in this world. And again, these are women who we're resilient.

Naama: 23:27

To begin with, I served as an officer in the West Bank and I was an educational officer, which is not a very combat thing to be, but because I was always the one not going into the field, not going into the things that were going on, I was always the one guarding the base that was. It's called, it doesn't matter. I have trouble with military terms in English because I have them in Hebrew. So I was always the one guarding the base and knowing what the soldiers, the female soldiers, what they went through. I know that I, a couple of years ago, would have been the same person. I know that I would have been the one, the only one, with a weapon, trying to make sense of the situation, trying to guard my few soldiers who couldn't even fathom the situation, or me, immediately seeing one of the videos which I don't want to speak about, but one of the videos of the girls, and I was immediately feeling like it was me. It was just like, wow, okay, I was that girl at the party a couple times in my life.

Naama: 24:49

I actually was supposed to be down south that weekend and because it's a holiday and things, the prices rise because of the holiday we decided not to go. So it was like a pretty good chance of me just deciding to go to that party just because why not? Why not? This area of the south is the area of the festivals or the parties. Like is where things go on, and the week after that is Indy negative, which is one of the most known festivals that I was actually like.

Naama: 25:27

I didn't, I wasn't supposed to play, but I was like the last to know that I wasn't supposed to play. So a lot of my friends, international friends, were like positive that I was at that party. Cause again, it's so. It's really. There's really no reason for me not to be Knowing that I may have been on MDMA or certain drugs while experiencing something like this. That was like my first thought. I was like damn, like these girls were I will just say this were brutally raped, were violently, violently killed and at the same time, the ones who survived are supposed to now deal with this trauma and the rest of the world feels comfortable shaming and blaming them for something that they were like so far from wanting to experience.

Di: 26:26

Not only that, they were people of peace, they were people of, I mean, the exact opposite of what is happening right now and what they deserved. I mean it's yeah, it's hard to take.

Naama: 26:42

Exactly. So we kind of deteriorated from the question. But in terms of resilience, I'm aware of what my friends and what my family or what my society looks like. I'm aware of what this country looks like from the inside. I have family who's mixed. I have cousins who are Arab Israelis Like there's no question to me whether whether we're peace seekers or, at the very least, peace fighters and democracy fighters.

Naama: 27:20

I've been like since, since March, since I came back from my tour, I've been to every single Saturday demonstration against what was going on, and we can talk about it if you want, but with the current government, who I do not support at all, but at the same time, like shaming us for making certain decisions or having a certain party in control and saying, okay, so that means we can deny certain things that happen to you or, you know, even create a situation where that was valid, and it's just, it's a complete erasure of of anything. Anything we could have even imagined like this is a complete eraser of our lives, of our humanity, of our ability to even create a life.

Di: 28:19

So I have Let me just sorry, no, I was just gonna say because I wanna make sure that the context is clear.

Di: 28:28

Before October 7th, there was a very, very big tear within Israel that I'm not sure everybody who's listening to this podcast is aware of. That may have or may not, okay, have contributed to the October 7th massacre and the start of the war, and that was basically the people in control of the government right now have very extreme views of how the country and state should be managed. And so the people who went to the Saturday night demonstrations, like Na'amah and myself before I was really pregnant I stopped going when I was super pregnant but these are people who wanted to protect the democracy and the freedom of Israel, because Israel is the one, the single one free, democratic country in the entire region. So this was a very, very big deal within the Israeli society, and so this was like a huge turning point that nobody saw coming. So, yeah, sorry, continue. I was just there was that point where I wanted to make sure that everybody was clear on that.

Naama: 30:06

You've explained it perfectly. That's exactly what it was and yeah, that's. And the fact that the rest of the world does not see the active boiling democracy we have to the point where, like, we put a stop to a very, very dangerous decision they had around the Supreme Court. That was our doing, that was the people's doing, and you can question our government, you can question everything you can, for sure you can decide. All these point of views don't matter.

Naama: 30:43

But when you cancel, when you cancel the mere existence of our country and I get exposed to this a lot because I don't mind putting my views out on social media and actually that was not an easy thing to be doing, it was not, it wasn't easy. I would say my personal resilience was very challenged around that, very, very challenged around that, and I had to put a stop to it a couple of times and go private because, again, the mere existence of who I am fully to say yes, I am Israeli, I'm proud of my country and I highly condemn whatever happened and I also believe in peace. So these four things are like to someone who is just has no idea what's going on here and is just here to, I don't know, Americanize the conflict and create some sort of resistance that has nothing to do with what's going on, like literally nothing to do with what's going on here. It was a rough thing to come across.

Di: 32:08

Absolutely and as far as I'm concerned, on a personal note, if you don't understand anything that Madjah said and you're listening with an open mind and you're just then good on you, like way to go. And if the opposite is true, if you have something to say but you literally don't know what is going on within the society and you're just listening, then maybe this is an invitation to either educate yourself a little bit more, which is a wonderful thing, or maybe just stay out of it, Like really just stay out of it. It is very, very harmful when people who are uneducated, who actually don't know what is going on and the intricacies of everything. It is very harmful when you speak out and there are so many layers to the conflict too.

Naama: 33:14

Like it's, like it's multi-layered would be like the bottom of it. Like really, I have a lot of education around the subject. I was very interested in it early on, before the army and after the army, and in the army. I was right, I would say, and I served in one of the most like my military service was half in Hebron, half in Ramallah Very controversial, yeah, I was like literally in the areas, and I still have things that I don't understand about the conflict.

Naama: 33:54

So, obviously, if you and I appreciate the outer perspective for people who are kind of outside of it, definitely, but I would make it a little bit more difficult. But I would make sure to, first of all, don't go too extreme as in to take specific sides, because within the sides there are different sides.

Di: 34:17

Absolutely, absolutely.

Naama: 34:20

So I would not be as arrogant as to take complete sides in it. But again, being pro-human rights, being pro-democracy is very important, but also note that this is such a complex issue. Right, this is like beyond anything you, anyone can imagine, and there's a reason why we've been in it for so long and we haven't been able to get a resolution in the area. Anyways, yeah, right.

Di: 34:57

No, absolutely. And the I have a client and friend who is a German journalist and she's brilliant and she's talking to me just the other day and she's talking to her colleagues from all over the world and they're describing situations to her and she's saying they don't even understand the difference. Okay, this is someone who is not Israeli, not Jewish and just covering the stories and she's saying they don't even understand that when they're talking about the minister of defense, this is not the IDF, this is not the head of the military, right, and there are so many different layers. One doesn't stand for the other. Yeah, yeah, and what I'm saying is the reporters she was telling me, her colleagues don't understand and they're reporting to the layman who's just watching the news and so you know, it's almost like, really, if you're uneducated and spreading the word, it's an issue, it's a big issue, yeah.

Naama: 36:18

And a lot of it is rooted in anti-Semitism. I will say it as clear as it gets. Plus, you know there's no, a lot of people don't really. Well, most people don't really make the difference between and it's not only Hamas between Palestinians, civilians who are hurt themselves and their leaderships Notice.

Naama: 36:41

I say with an S, because they have a few. So they also like there's this thing in there, and the fact that I saw a video yesterday of me being go nuts about there's okay. So it's been raining the past two days and there was a live on TikTok that someone did in Chanyones, which is in Gaza, and they were just, you know, just livening the city, the flooded city, the streets, and in my experience, it's like so what are you trying to say? You're trying to show that you're this like. Really, you know you don't even have the basic infrastructure for rain, but how is that my fault? How is that my fault? Right?

Di: 37:31

Oh, is that what they were saying? Yeah, no, no, but I'm.

Naama: 37:35

But it's very interesting because Voices if there's, their perpetual victims, no matter what, and their vixen ours.

Di: 37:44

There's a lot of these where actually so I'm a little older than you and I took part in this is really a conflict within myself. I'm dealing with it. I, in 2005, was in the Army and I was part of the forces who were taking Israelis out of Gaza, of the area, and so this was when Ariel Sharon was the prime minister, and I'm going to also share my views here. I'm left and I was very, very pro getting out of Gaza and making sure that the Palestinians have this space for themselves and they can turn it into their Tel Aviv, whatever they were going to do with it. And they got the funding, they got the freedom. We stayed out of it, and I got looks from people when we took them back to the base, and I saw this one mother who we made sure she wasn't because there were people who were trying to get back in and disrupt the whole disengagement, and I remember her look and my uniform and she's and I'm thinking to myself oh my God, I feel so shitty with myself right now she's giving me a look that I'm just like, oh my God, please don't do that to me, because, yeah, and but I firmly believe that this is their land and that they have the right to it and we need to stay out of it. And I firmly believed that, with all of the billions they were receiving, and that they were going to turn it into a cool place and like, but that's not what happened. And so I can honestly say to you that, as someone who's dealing with all this now, I never thought that, you know, so many years later, this was going to come back. Almost 20 years later, this was going to come back to me and raise many questions.

Di: 40:05

But I am pro-Palestine, I'm pro-Israel and just like you were saying, namat, there's. How can you take sides? It's? I am just very, very specifically anti-terrorism. I am very specifically anti-terrorism. I believe that the Gazans, the Palestinians, should have had a thriving, beautiful area in Gaza, and that's not what happened. And so you know, there are no specific sides, except the people who need to be held accountable need to be held accountable. That is not happening right now.

Naama: 40:48

Yeah, we took it very politically for a second.

Di: 40:52

I was just thinking. I was just thinking like we and you know what, honestly I hope everybody listens to this to this episode.

Naama: 41:02

That makes me happy, because I was like, oh no, she did, that's not what she wanted.

Di: 41:06

Oh no, I'm not. I was actually going to say Torezia. I was actually going to say I'm not going to censor a word. This is going to go just like this, onto the podcast, mostly because I think you and I are also describing a situation that is very gray and that is not black and white, and I think that's so important. That is not what's being presented on any media.

Naama: 41:34

For sure, I agree.

Di: 41:37

So I want to. I want to wrap up with talking about a few more words about using music as a tool for healing. Again, one of the reasons that female artists are so important to me right now, and to making your voices heard, is A this is a very male dominated situation we're in. Okay, war in general is very male dominated.

Naama: 42:18

There are plenty of female victims and female heroes. Absolutely yeah.

Di: 42:28

Yeah, and the more the stories come out. I mean, anybody who's really getting into it knows that actually, the one kibbutz that was okay, you know, and that was relatively intact, was thanks to a woman.

Naama: 42:46

They didn't. They didn't enter the kibbutz because she was intuitive enough to understand that something is going on and that, and she asked the person who normally would open the gates to keep the gates locked.

Di: 43:03

So that's yeah, yeah, and she was many many, many more Right right.

Naama: 43:08

There was a unit that there's a female arm armored unit sherry on. Like how would you say, sherry on, anyways, yeah, armory, yeah, yeah, yeah. Female unit who, like, took down 10s of terrorists in that area, like really kept their area safe so just yeah, there's.

Di: 43:35

the list goes on.

Di: 43:36

Yeah, and yet still the narrative, the voices that are there to mostly heard our male and, of course, I think a lot of the art has been put aside for now, just like you've actually experienced, like the, the put on hold of your album and tour. But I'm realizing that for me, I'm not, I'm not creating art, I'm very like in the situation. I'm very I'm in full on mommy mode as well, and you know, I'm just that's not what I do. But I find that turning to people who are creating is actually very helpful for my well being and I think that you have the tools for yourself to also understand things and use the situation in a way that us people, the people who are not, you know, in in the artistic creative space, we don't have those tools. So it's almost like we're we're turning to you Because it is so helpful for our well being, for understanding, and so, if you just want to say a few words on on that and the addressing the collective trauma through music, just to wrap up, For sure.

Naama: 45:09

I would say, like depends which part. I would say the, the just singing and playing is very intuitive. You just kind of like you need to there's, there's a, there's a real deep need to just release something out of your body and with singing there's something very unique to it that it just like comes out of your soul and it has the ability to pull people in. So I would say, singing wise and again, like this is, I can't completely say that it was easy for me at the beginning, with the amount of running the shelter and things like that, like it was, it took a toll on me also as an artist. Like writing was a little more, a little easier in the first two weeks than it was to sing.

Naama: 46:06

But um to I don't remember two weeks ago, something like that, I was invited to sing at a, at a ceremony for stirrote displaced families and and it was an opportunity for me to create some sort of connection to you know, just just an invitation to feel.

Naama: 46:32

So you don't really need to say too much to, you just have to choose an emotional song that might fit the situation and they're around, I would say around 100 people, and you can just feel everyone crying and it's just an invitation to to kind of let go. And I would imagine and I can't imagine because I was not them I would imagine that being displaced from your city or from your home after experiencing something so traumatic would kind of either block you or just you know you would completely fall apart. So I could really see like at the beginning people were telling me that we don't know if people, if there will be an audience or whatever, but I could really see how much they were looking to to cry together, to create this like kind of ceremony of a spiritual ceremony around around pain. So that would be the first thing to me is that anything musical is it's just healing. It's just healing Like you, just you just need a little bit of that. It immediately goes in your ear and, like something, calms down or it brings it up.

Naama: 48:01

It could also bring it up but in a way that you would, you know, kind of let it out. So that would be the first thing. And in terms of creating music, it's it's a difficult one because the things that have gone through my system are, I would say, as normally they do, mostly the as a feminist, mostly the pain that a lot of the women went through and are still going through because we still have 200 and almost 240 hostages, and it isn't easy for me to to reach that area. See, like I in a second, I like just just imagining what they might be going through and the kids. It's been, it's been rough.

Naama: 48:57

So once in a while I like sit down, when, when it kind of gushes out of me, I sit down and I write something from it, and so that's what I did a few days ago with the poem and learning some sort of guitar riff that I really liked and I'm knowing myself, once I feel safe enough to to let out my perspective, it'll come out. It'll come out. I would say it comes out in stages. If it has to do with people outside of me, then I am the first person to to create a hub of love, mostly around the singing part and around the writing and creating. I can't say it's an easy time for that, but it comes out once in a while. Yeah.

Di: 49:51

Listen, I enjoy talking to you so much and I honestly hope that you know you end up flourishing from from where we are now. I know it's hard to see it right now, but I believe that that that's coming for you and you are just absolutely so sweet. I'm not going to censor a thing and this is going to go straight to post production. Everything you said I feel has to be heard and I greatly appreciate everything that you have said and thank you so much for coming on the show.

Naama: 50:36

Thank you so much for for having me and it's been a great conversation for me to just like let it out and and speak about the things that have been on my mind. So thank you for the conversation, yeah.