Gender Differences in Education and Depression

Speaker 1 0:01

Welcome back to Bodyaholic with Dee . I am so very excited to share this conversation with you . I had a very special guest , dana Onegene . Dana's an expert in education and child development , and she came on to have a deep and important conversation with me about the differences in depression and emotional expression between girls slash women and boys slash men in the school system , and she has a broad experience throughout different segments of the school system . This is a topic that's close to my heart , just because I'm a mom and a parent , and I know it's something that affects so many young people . So Dana's insights were truly eye-opening and our conversation left me feeling empowered and hopeful . She shared a lot of valuable information about the unique challenges faced by young girls and boys and how we can create a more supportive and understanding environment for them . So I'm so grateful for this powerful discussion and I know it will leave a lasting impact on all of us .

Speaker 1 1:23

So let's dive right in Bodyholic with Dean , your one-stop shop for science-backed well-being breakthroughs . Forget the fads , ditch the myths . We are here to get you on the fast track to feeling and looking fantastic . So get ready to dive deep into the real deal on your health , happiness and everything in between , let's go Welcome Dana Onayemi . I am so happy to have you on Bodyholic with Dee . Thank you so much .

Speaker 2 1:54

I'm so happy to be here .

Speaker 1 1:59

I am so excited about this topic . I don't think I'm I'm like happy excited so much . I'm happy you're here , but this is a real serious issue that I would love to tackle with you . Um , and do you want to say a few words before I start throwing my questions at you , and just tell me a little bit about yourself and your background ?

Speaker 2 2:24

Yeah , sure , and your concerns , yeah yeah , well , I'm Dana and I'm about , you know , at that mid-career point where you have all those aha moments and you look back all the time on how did I get here and you look back all the time on how did I get here ? So I had spent I've spent the first half of my career in K-8 education setting . I was brought there because of my love for children and giving children the childhood that they truly deserve , and a lot of that came from my experiences growing up in foster care and going to probably over 16 different schools and seeing that just the culture of the school and the people , the teachers , the way they approach you can so have such a big impact on your own self-worth , and so I really wanted to be positioned in a place where I could positively impact things . And now I'm currently in a different role because I needed to take a little step back from the traditional education setting , even though I'm still in an education setting .

Speaker 2 3:50

I'm in higher education now working with masters and doctoral students and trying to tackle some of the ethical challenges that that come in the higher education space , but my heart is still with how we raise our children collectively , so I still do a lot of consulting with schools , local school districts , and I just try to just be a helper wherever I can when things come up , just be a helper wherever I can when things come up . And so the topic today , I think , is one that is important to me personally . But I also think , if we could really focus our energy in raising happy , healthy children , that that would change the outcome of things . You know , we before you know off camera , we started with just checking in , and when I think about how hard it is to combat all of the things that are going on in the world and just carry that on our shoulders , we need to be able to have systems and structures and places where we could just be authentically ourselves , and I think schools and education spaces are the perfect places for those things to happen to happen .

Speaker 1 5:37

That should be that , in my opinion , that should be the absolute goal , the top of the priority list , and it would change I mean you're saying the outcome completely would change the world .

Speaker 2 5:44

Yeah , Be able to have conversations and navigate challenges without so much hatred and truly like shutting down with anger or with all these other practices that don't don't prioritize all of the gifts that we've been given as humans in how we can communicate with one another . So it's very important .

Speaker 1 6:15

You are , yeah , you're like in my heart . Um , I want to know a little bit about gender differences in the school system , in the education system . Regarding depression , is there a difference between girls slash women , because you know different systems ? Is there a difference between girls women and boys men ?

Speaker 2 6:49

Yeah , you know , in knowing this is the topic we were going to look at , I wanted to go back and do a little research to just confirm what I feel like I know in interacting with people and kids , young girls and women and boys and men , and globally the statistics are very clear that it's girls and women at twice the rate of depression than boys and men .

Speaker 2 7:21

Looking at the data , but then the more that I think about it and I do think that there are differences and a lot of differences for many reasons that we're going to talk about .

Speaker 2 7:33

But truly I think it's the fact that we , from the beginning , we have these gendered stereotypes in most of our societies and I think the way then we condition around it , it makes some of the statistics not as reliable , I think , because we're only paying attention to some of the ways depression can looks . So I do believe that there are . There is a gender difference . I think just knowing you know women hormonally and starting from puberty is really where the discrepancy takes place . You know it kind of starts in earlier childhood . It's still rare to have depression in earlier childhood , but then there's less of a gender difference at that age and then it's really starting at puberty after , and we can't deny the science behind the fact that women's bodies are different than men's bodies and I think that that is a factor here as well and that in the education setting really gets emphasized in some ways that are problematic .

Speaker 2 9:04

Think of an example right away from just off of the top of my head but , um , we start in kindergarten or preschool even separating the genders by how they line up girls line up over here , boys line up over here .

Speaker 2 9:24

This is still very typical . I know that it's been a practice , that has been one . I've gone to many professional development sessions that say you know , this is gender stereotyping . But in my experience and in the schools that I've worked in and even I mean I left the K-8 daily setting four years ago and it was more common to line up your students by gender than not , in the school that I was in and in a lot of the schools that I've visited since , it's just still a practice , at least in the US , that is regularly happening . And so from that age , from pre-K , we've already decided there are these differences that are so much so that you need to line up this way and then from there the system does what it does , and I think that that it's problematic for boys in a lot of ways , um , but it's problematic for girls in the area of depression and how we , we kind of nurture that space for girls by by expecting them to be happy and smile , um , and be nice all the time .

Speaker 1 10:48

And this is kind of just our culture , so it's a cultural thing . And then there's also the actual action of separating them , which was very surprising to me , which was very surprising to me , and also I'm interested in the emotional expression of girls , how it manifests itself in the schools . So there's what you said , there's the puberty , and how does it express itself , how does it manifest ? And I kind of piqued my interest also when you said that it's problematic that separation . You see it as problematic for boys .

Speaker 2 11:40

I was interested in that a little bit . So if you could elaborate , so if you could elaborate , yeah , so I could start there . Actually , because it kind of plays's this feeling that they're like the gatekeepers to society and so like , if we can help you be successful in all of these things , then you'll be able to adapt and live in the society Instead of thinking of you know , these things are problematic in society . So in this space we're going to nurture you in the ways that we know from like a child development perspective of what's best for children . But really it doesn't happen that way .

Speaker 2 12:37

And so for boys , it's the expectation that they don't cry , that they don't show emotions , that they don't emote in a way , unless it's anger . And I think that that's one of the ways it becomes problematic for boys . When you look at statistics for like discipline , you're looking at boys carrying the weight there , at boys carrying the weight there . So there it might still be underlying depression , but it's being expressed as anger , and then it's being punished in terms of behavior in a disciplinarian type of a way , and you look at the boy data there and it's glaringly problematic . But I think those same things are impacting both genders .

Speaker 2 13:32

But then for girls I think it does get expressed more because they're trying to still maintain what the expectation is of them , which is to be academically like involved and happy about it and smiling and pleasant and friendly . And then anytime it's not that , then those are the girls who do also end up in like that behavior track a lot of time . Otherwise it's nurtured . You know , like they're allowed to be sad , but like not in the classroom but it's okay still and it's languished around , it's okay . But with boys it's not okay . I've heard so many I mean it's not okay . I've heard so many , I mean my own colleagues say to the boys you're a boy , why are you crying ? Like knock it off .

Speaker 1 14:34

Age group yeah , fifth graders no , but like colleagues that are not much older Are even , yeah , close to retirement or okay , because I feel like it's old school to say that . Um , but I also feel like it's really old school to say that like it's .

Speaker 2 14:59

It becomes in the culture though too , because that is , it's old school in terms of generation , but I think it's pretty typical in terms of , like the teaching culture . You know , like I , I know there are a lot of there are several teacher advocates who have implemented things that are supportive of helping cure this like gendered spectrum , self-created thing that we've imposed , you know , and really trying to look at the practices that have been in place for a really long time and think of other alternative ways . But , more likely than not , the teachers come into the system and they're apprenticed into this way that it's been . So every teacher has been apprenticed as a teacher from the time they were a kindergartner or preschooler , and then they they go in and they mimic a lot of the things that have been done for them . So I think that that's kind of why some of what feels old school feels still very much just like normal school , if you see my pun intended there .

Speaker 1 16:25

Yeah , I saw it and I liked it , but it's , it's very interesting and a little PS . My very young son , he's right now seven months old and he was , I think , four months old or something like that and I have a wonderful nanny who helps me in the evenings when I've got the two kids and she , he was crying and she said to him , uh , and she's , she's a little older .

Speaker 1 17:08

And she says , uh , you're not supposed to cry , you're a man . And I remember like , and my reaction was like , but I didn't say anything because of course , that's not going to be his experience . Like you know , I can mask that easily for the rest of his life and also , yeah , and also , like , somehow integrate her into the more softer . She's amazing . She's amazing .

Speaker 2 17:42

But well , and then shows like Bluey or all of these different you know kids shows . Now it makes it feel like society has come further along in that area . So you can do some of that , not sheltering , but in what you say yes to , yes , you could put that on . Yes , we could watch that .

Speaker 2 17:55

Then you can really nurture , like the whole emotional spectrum in your son , you know , because there's so much beauty in the full emotional spectrum . But when we only are looking for nice and pleasing and compliant in schools , that it does hurt both girls and boys in these different ways and and then that makes it like we we can choose to unpack a lot of that and and create spaces that are different . And I think underlying all of it is that like compliance way , and girls are compliant in this way and boys are compliant in this way , and a lot of that is wrapped up in our emotions and how we emotionally regulate . And it's wonderful that you know with your young son you're already thinking about how to nurture the full range of emotions and push back on some of those stereotypes . But it would be really great if we could do that systematically , you know .

Speaker 1 19:08

Right , and it's concerning because I can't help but put myself in this conversation because I have a five-year-old daughter and so I can't help it and I'm concerned exactly for them . And it's very interesting to me that the manifestation is so different and the uh , the knowledge of the different , the fact that , um , you know , and that other professionals know , that the anger in boys often is actually depression , it's something that they're not allowed to feel and so it's , it turns into that , um , the fact that it's known and it's something we're aware of and it's being researched . I think it has to be systematic , because this is like a whole , generation after generation after generation . And the other thing is also the expectation that you're talking about from girls and women . It seems to me like we're definitely nowhere near the equality we claim to be in . And how do we systematically change this ? Like how , how does how , do we go about it ?

Speaker 2 20:50

Yeah , that's a good question . Um well , I have like philosophical answers to that , but I also have concrete , tangible

Creating Compassionate and Inclusive Education

Speaker 2 21:01

ones . You know , for me , philosophically , I feel that everybody has the capability to remove these biased glasses we've all been wearing . You know like you could do it . It takes intentional work . It takes like rethinking thoughts that you've always had and going why do I think that ? Where did that come from ? Where did I learn that ? And really unpacking some of that thinking , because it shows up in so many ways , from young children all the way to older . But as a female who's now in computer science and in the computer science arena , it feels very uncomfortable a lot of times because there's still those gendered expectations and it feeds me back to an unhealthy mental space . And then I have to then go okay , where did I learn to put myself in this unhealthy mental space ? Because I'm female ? Am I interpreting this differently because I've heard that women are treated differently in the sciences ? Or am I being treated differently ? And unpacking it and seeing what's the evidence for , what's the evidence against , and trying my best to remove those lenses . So that's kind of , I think , like theoretically what anyone could do a whole different structure and approach to valuing emotion and valuing what the holistic human brings to the education experience .

Speaker 2 22:52

My husband is in a high school setting . He was an administrator and now he's back in the classroom and it was for the reason that he was . He was mentally unwell from seeing how the system was harming the boys and anybody who came through , specifically the non-white boys in his school , and he wanted solutions and so he felt that the solution is back at where we meet the students and where we teach the students and those spaces we create for our students . So he put into place it's called a CARE Center . It stands for Connect . It stands for Connect , advocate , reflect , empower and it's just a space . It's him and one other teacher in the building who has really been a leader for helping that space grow . He was a parent to a student that he had to work with this parent through a challenge and they kind of formed this positive relationship even from a very negative situation .

Speaker 2 24:12

And that was the heart of the care center , where the students go and they're learning about like they might be there because they're stressed out in their physics class , because they don't like how their teacher's doing something or they don't know the material and they're feeling anxiety and that anxiety they've named it , they've recognized it and in this space they can unpack it . They could talk about specific skills and strategies to combat it . They get empowered , like why don't specific skills and strategies to combat it ? They get empowered like why don't you go and talk to your teacher and explain why you're anxious , what you could have done differently to prepare up to this point , but then ask for an extension so that you can put together and show them your plan that you've created so that you could be successful , that you've created so that you could be successful . Just having that could be . Any classroom space should be like that .

Speaker 2 25:06

But having places where the children can go when they're feeling any kind of emotion , that isn't what's expected at that moment . Because what happens in schools is like teachers care very passionately about making sure the students are successful , but I think a lot of times that puts on blinders to like thinking the what they're doing in that moment is what's the most important , when really it's the people who are the most important . And so like being like okay , you're very much like you right now . This what we're doing , this isn't important , you need to go .

Speaker 2 25:49

Why don't you go ? Like we didn't have a care center in my school . So I'd say go walk the hallway three times and just think about anything . Put yourself like in your favorite space that you've ever been . Imagine like the beach , and go walk around in circles . Imagine you're at the beach and then the student would come back to class . They'd be calmer and they would either be ready to engage in the learning or not . But but they were the most important thing to me in that moment , and not like my fraction lesson , you know .

Speaker 1 26:28

Um , can I just stop you for a second ? Yeah , I'm like jumping out of my skin because I , uh , we need to like . This is basically your husband . Model is the care center . Yes , okay , this has to be implemented everywhere , okay , everywhere . This needs to be modeled everywhere . We think so , yeah , and I , and I want to repeat , and you are correct objectively , you are correct , um , and and I just want to repeat something you said before you go on , I've got the chills . Putting the emphasis on the human being rather than what that human being is doing is so important , and the fact that you pulled that child out into mindfulness and then came back .

Speaker 1 27:22

I mean this is this is so important , is this the ? Are we talking about the public school system or the private ?

Speaker 2 27:32

Yeah , well , actually , when I was in the K-8 setting , it was public . I started , I had two teaching experiences in the city and then this is more of the suburban public school experience that I can speak most in depth to , but now I'm in private higher education , so it's a lot of the same similar things . Though , just looking at what a 19 year old needs , they might need something like mindfulness strategies more than they need to learn about how to organize an expository essay . You know , like you , you can always learn how to organize an expository essay at any time . But if you are challenged by anything that's going on in your environment and there's so many different things that impact each of us individually that we could say , like , check it at the door . But that's not human , that's not what we do . We can't just check , check things at the door , and so we have to have spaces that value everything we bring .

Speaker 2 28:50

And then don't label some emotions as negative . So , like , anger always gets labeled as a bad emotion and it gets punished and it gets , you know , consequences , but anger is a natural human reaction . We have to learn how to like , respond to our anger in a way that's healthy and appropriate , and we don't do that . If we are just saying , now you have a detention because in that space that's not what's being taught . But I mean that is where it could be taught . You know you could have when these things come up , instead of it being like a detention , you are able to spend time in a care center like space . But it also shouldn't be seen as a punishment either . So it's just anger doesn't have to be a bad emotion . It just is an emotion . How we handle it and how we take it out is that could be bad , but we have to then learn . Those things should be taught just as much as any other subject you know ?

Speaker 1 30:02

Yeah , I was actually thinking the um . Even like if we called the detention a workshop or we would put it , put um , we would have a care center . Uh it , it can't be that it's um . People who just had an anger fit and didn't know how to handle it go there , because even if we call it a workshop , it's going to be a punishment . So it has to be a collective thing , it has to be an ongoing workshop and even if , like once in a while , someone needs a little bit more attention , still everybody knows what's going on in there and it's like it's more of a collective effort .

Speaker 2 30:48

Yeah , definitely . The challenge is , though , in and in the way the school as a culture responds to these kinds of things in place . Like you , I love how , with such enthusiasm , you got excited about the care concept and you're like , yes , every school needs to have one of these . I see the resistance to this kind of thing because it is giving the children the freedom to be their whole self and I think that that scares some people like they won't have full control .

Speaker 1 31:32

Who's ?

Speaker 2 31:32

resisting Other faculty teachers , people in the system who have resistant thoughts towards that kind of model . Sorry , it happened in my school setting as well , because my classroom kind of became a care center of sorts . I had other students from other classes coming into my classroom all of the time Because we didn't have a care center . I had an agreement with one of my colleagues for a couple of our students who just struggled with emotional regulation . I would say , if this student shows up to your class and they say I'm here to help you Miss Onayemi sent me that is a code for they needed a break Could you welcome them into your classroom and just have them read with one of your students or have them clean up a shelf for you or , you know , give them some sort of leadership opportunity . And it was a way for that student who is having , you know , these issues with their own emotional regulation because of things that were going on . You know , like something would happen at recess or something would happen in music , and then they come back and be all worked up . And then we say , well , don't be worked up , get in your seat , open your math book , let's get started . It doesn't , it doesn't work like that and that'll only lead to problems . But we can have the . We can have spaces where it feels like empowerment and it feels like leadership to name and express your emotion and then to go do something that is positive and actionable in a way that gets you , I guess , a healthy mental reset , you know . So I think that we could do these things in the school setting .

Speaker 2 33:40

Social emotional learning is a big bandwagon initiative that a lot of schools I think you could talk to any set of teachers here in the US and say SEL and they'll know that that means social emotional learning . Wow , so people know it's important , but what's happened is these become box programs where it's like buy this box curriculum and teach your lesson about feelings on Tuesday at 9 am , you know , and the challenge with that is that we don't feel our feelings only at Tuesday at 9 am , you know . We might feel our feeling at any time and we have to have flexible , responsive schedules and systems and classrooms and spaces . I talk a lot about spaces because kids who are worked up a lot of times they need to go somewhere , but we don't have anywhere for them to go . I know in our public schools here that might then look like a student saying I have to go to the bathroom , and then they're gone for 15 minutes and then they get in trouble for messing around in the bathroom .

Speaker 1 35:04

You know that was me I needed . I needed a moment for myself . I can't like I didn't even remember this . I needed a moment for myself , so I was just hanging out in the bathroom .

Speaker 2 35:13

Yeah , oh my gosh . I for me , it was the nurse . I asked to go to

Empathy and Academic Success

Speaker 2 35:17

the nurse . All the time I had a stomach ache every day , basically , but that was because it was the only space that I could go . I had to make up an excuse . I basically had to condition myself to be to actually either have a stomach ache every day or to be a liar , which doesn't feel right , because I've always prioritized honesty , because I've always prioritized honesty , but it's the only space . It was the only space you could not be in your classroom and still be in like a sanctioned . It's okay that you're here .

Speaker 2 35:58

I once made up that . I once tried to escape to the library and I wrote myself like a fake pass because I didn't want to take a test in a certain class , and then I got caught and it was right before I was going to win like student of the month award and so . But you see , like the pressure we put on on girls specifically to be like perfect in how we like navigate our academic life , and then if we don't feel perfect , we have to go and find these other solutions that if there was a care center , we could just have gone there and talked with somebody and got our mind right and figured out a solution , how to solve the problem , and I think that that takes good . Not just a care center , but it takes care people , people who will always prioritize the child before the agenda or the schedule .

Speaker 1 37:05

This for me personally . I could totally freak out over homework and studying for an exam . I can honestly tell you that exams for me and I've done exams through my master's and every time I was like , why am I doing my master's ? Because this is torture for me . And I'm thinking , you know , through everything you're saying , if I actually had a place where I could do my homework without feeling in a safe space and study in it which you know isn't necessarily the library because you're hearing talk about , but it's , it's designated as a safe space Exactly , you're going to do my homework like I would do it .

Speaker 2 38:00

Yeah , well , and that's actually what the students are doing in the care center , which is actually in in the school that my husband's in is more like an academic intervention right now a bunch of data to look at , you know how things are , and that class has the highest improvement in grades , the like lowest failure rates and perceptionally , it's the opposite of that , which is interesting because it's like those kids can't be the ones who are really , you know , improving because they have strong emotions or because they have , you know , these challenges that they need to navigate . There's nothing wrong with having the challenge they need to navigate Now . They have a space and a place where they can , with the loving nurture of an adult who has had experiences , who's lived through these things , who can story and reframe and help direct . I think having those spaces in every school would be , you know , just amazing . It should be basic level , I , I would think . But it would be amazing if we could get to that level .

Speaker 1 39:29

It would be it does , it feels basic , but of course , like you know , basic only happens after it's really been implemented for a long time . But like what you're , saying is like oh yeah , of course everybody , every school needs this and you know I can already hear the backlash of there are too many kids , we're under so much pressure , we don't have the budget . But if it became systematic it would be a non-issue , it would be part of every school , just like there's a library .

Speaker 2 40:07

Yeah , absolutely Absolutely , and libraries can and should be a heart of the school and these care center spaces can be within them or next to them or part of that . But what really ends up happening is then the students become leaders . They're leaders and then now , because they're learning all of this language in this space that they're taking to their peers and they're saying like , oh , you know , don't stress out about that , do this , this or this , you know , and it's solution based , it's action based and it's not negatively labeling the emotions that are associated with with life and with being a kid , whether you're five or 19 , you know or if you're like a 45 year old kid also , like if you have that experience , then at 45 , you're also not going to say you know , I'm such an idiot , I , that's like that I cannot that breaks my heart Every time I hear someone say like you know um , and I'll sometimes catch myself saying that and

Speaker 1 41:26

like , yeah , why am I talking to myself like that ? And and just because I'm feeling a certain thing and maybe I'm a little confused over something or um , but it's all okay and it's all natural , and there's always a way to deal with things . And the kid that you , the care center , is nurturing , and that you specifically personally are nurturing , um , also know how to tap into someone else's emotions and and help navigate . So when you say those are the lead , they become leaders . That really makes sense to me , because then automatically people would look at this person from the care center who grew from and say , like , okay , that he or she sees me , yes , and so we can work together .

Speaker 2 42:24

Yeah , I actually . In my experience I found that um and I worked mostly with third through fifth graders , so like eight through 11 year olds , um . But then , as much as I talk with my husband and he covers the high school end of the spectrum and now I'm in higher ed we truly feel like we've seen the right . But oh no , what was I going to say in the leadership ? Yeah , I don't remember . I lost it .

Speaker 1 42:57

But 500 times a day .

Speaker 2 42:59

Yeah , I know , it happens to me at least 500 times a day .

Speaker 1 43:02

I would say , that's because I have all these other ideas , like I know , I know , and here's what I wanted to tell you I'm going to start talking , yeah , and then the second , you remember , you just stop me . Well , yes , so there is the high prevalence of depression , among adolescents specifically , and the impact it can have on academic performance . What I'm getting from you is that it has to be , this , has to be prioritized , because it's like an ongoing , it's like a vicious cycle , and so you know , in every , every state and every school and every country , they want to be the top in terms of academic performance . Yeah , and so I feel like this goes hand in hand and this is like a pitching point for this model .

Speaker 1 44:03

Yeah , definitely , I agree should get on it , and also the professionals in this care center also need to be very well equipped to deal with this . Even if it's , even if the care center is actually just a person in the library , that person has to be very well equipped .

Speaker 2 44:37

Yeah , definitely , and be able to navigate a lot of complex situations and also have strong emotional regulation themselves .

Speaker 2 44:48

Because that's where , oh , what I was going to say is this I remember now is that the students who struggled the most with their emotional regulation throughout the day I always in my experience and I've worked with a lot of those students in my career they were actually the students who had the highest levels of empathy .

Speaker 2 45:14

I saw a correlation between empathy and emotional dysregulation , that that , like if there was an injustice of any kind , it it would stir up and then it would come out in these problematic ways that then got punished and labeled as that's a problem , problem child , whereas I saw it as that's a genius child who's got a giftedness in empathy .

Speaker 2 45:44

But their giftedness is being misportrayed is really how I felt and I now know after working with those students for a year or in some cases I worked with students for two years because I went from third up to fifth grade , so I had a lot of the same students again . Many of those students have come back to me , whether it was in middle school or high school or even beyond now , and have said that they now they feel that they can navigate their relationships , their emotions , and they're truly leaders in that regard , and I would imagine the same is true of the students who are going to come out of the care centers , that have already begun to flourish but will hopefully continue to flourish in many more spaces in many more spaces .

Speaker 1 46:47

This is so amazing because it goes back to the cycle I was thinking of , because empathy is one of the things that is really lacking in the younger generations . Now that's just backed by research , research and the the thought that we're suppressing that and we're teaching people , young people , to like , oh , you're feeling empathy and this is how you're going to shove it down and we're going to , you know , uh , because there's no , you can't actually get rid of it . If there's an emotion you don't need , it's not , you don't put , you shove it down . So it just goes back to that vicious cycle , rather than saying exactly what you said were okay , this is a gifted human being and , you know , I wish we had more time to get into social media and stuff , because that is definitely part of what takes away empathy , I think , what increases bullying and more and more so .

Speaker 2 47:53

Yeah , I would say , even though we can't get into it in depth . One thing I will say about it is we know social media has this big impact , but very little is being done in schools to teach those social media literacy skills . And so I think that that social media literacy skills , alongside empathy and emotional regulation skills , those are all part of the package that you would get in a care center , and that what happens outside of school is still important because it does impact how you feel when you're inside of the school . Because that's where a lot of schools will say well , that happened outside of school or that happened on , that's not my problem . That happened outside of school or that happened on , that's not my problem , but it definitely impacts everything that goes on . So that's the only thing .

Speaker 1 48:45

I can't say a lot but A hundred percent and um in the this , this was not part of um our recording . So but um , I knew that you and I were not going to be able to have . I just knew it from the beginning Because , also , when you and I spoke in Vegas , I could have sat down there for a really long time with you . So and I said to you in advance , like I just I know we're going to cut it short , it's okay . Actually , this what you said social media , literacy skills . We're going to have to pick up where we left off there , because that is , I've never even heard of that umbrella , you know , except , like I just you know , look at the research about social media , but the literacy skills that has to be taught .

Speaker 2 49:42

Yes , yes , I do a lot of lessons with students in higher ed now , but I would have done the same lessons that I do there in K-12 space A lot of like looking at what's the spectrum of , uh like , ideologies and beliefs , and then how do we navigate that ? Where does it come up ? Looking at algorithms and all kinds of things . There's so much you can do . Um

Empathy in Education

Speaker 2 50:14

. One thing I'll say is I am proud of my oldest two , who have regularly like self um , self-imposed , uh no social media for however much time like social media breaks , once they realize they're dysregulated in using social media , taking a social media break .

Speaker 2 50:39

We do that you did it , you know we need to do that that's you .

Speaker 1 50:45

I mean you . That is the education that you two have provided you know your kids with . Yeah , and we were going to really have to continue this conversation . It's this is so important and yeah , the it's scary for me in terms like just , you know wanting to protect , I have little ones and you know just wanting to protect . I have little ones and you know just wanting to protect , and but it's , it's something in your conditioning that works very well .

Speaker 1 51:25

Before we sign off , yeah , I just want to say how amazing it is that you are a computer science expert , science expert and um . You know you deal with , uh , creating curriculums and and you head you have headed different things throughout the different um education systems . You know the k-8 and then the higher , and I just want to say , like , how , if , if everybody who had you know a job that is , that is more standard , okay , where everybody has these , you know computer science and okay , but if everybody had that ability to see the human being you know , know , how amazing would that be ? And how amazing is it that you are , you know computer science and so incredibly empathetic and sensitive and safe for your students ?

Speaker 2 52:40

Yeah , and I think it's really important to grow leadership in that area as well . I'm sure that's a whole different topic that can be tackled , which is how you know , ai and all of these newer technologies impact our humanity truly , our humanity truly , um , and I do believe that they , that there's spaces and importance to bring these skills into schools . But again , no matter what and this is the trick , the trick is , like every initiative in education , it's always about the initiative and not about the person .

Speaker 2 53:22

I remember you saying that yeah , we should be at that point where , no matter what initiative comes our way , we know we're people first focused and then the initiative can layer into that . But we don't have that layer yet . I don't think consistently .

Speaker 1 53:43

It was , um , it is so special to um go into this conversation , me being like , really interested in the gender differences , and then the the end of the conversation is that we're looking at the person and you know , and it started by you basically bringing to light the idea that , okay , so there's more depression with females , but the anger that we're seeing with boys is probably underlying depression . And you make me you really made me look differently rather than separate it like they do in kindergarten . So it's just the human being and trying to look under the behavior that I'm seeing or we're seeing .

Speaker 2 54:44

Yeah , definitely yeah , and it's interesting too because , as I was thinking about it being framed from the gender differences , there definitely are all of these layers of things that have been put into place to make that so , but those same things are the things that we should be questioning anyways . You know , and and it's easy to me , it's always easy to bring it back and make it about the people , because when you do that , you see it differently , and and if we could just consistently see it that way , I think that would be helpful . I've talked with business leaders , ceos , who are like when organizations adopt this way of being and this way of putting the people first , they succeed , they thrive , more so than their competitors . So I think it's important , no matter , yes .

Speaker 1 55:41

You know yeah , that's what I was saying Like , even if you're a 45 year old kid , absolutely , yeah , absolutely , Um , I'm I'm so moved by this uh evolution that we had in the conversation and uh how and how meta it is , Like just this episode that we're recording , and how very honest and real , and I'm so grateful for your presence . So , thank you so so much .

Speaker 2 56:20

Yeah , well , thank you for having me . I was really excited to have the conversation and to just talk with other people who are passionate about bringing holistic health and what that means in all the spaces we occupy . Those are the people who we wanna grab a hold of and keep in our circles , because it's really there's . There's an army of people trying to do other things , so we don't . We don't need that , we need each other , we need goodness and we need the power of of these kinds of changes , and I'm so grateful to even get to talk about my heart a little bit with you on this . You are something else .

Speaker 1 57:06

Thank you so much for tuning in to Bodyholic with Dee . If you enjoyed this episode , make sure to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode . And don't forget to share this podcast with your friends or your family , or both . It might just be the inspiration they need to start their own fitness and health journey . Remember that a healthy body is a happy body , so let's keep moving and keep growing and keep inspiring each other .