Di: 0:00

Hey, my dear friends, welcome to another episode of the Bodyholic with Di podcast. So today's episode is a special one, and it's not just because we're diving deep into a topic I know you are all dying to hear about we'll get to that later but also because I get to share the mic with someone incredibly close to me. This rarely happens, so Rotem Lahav is joining us on today's show, and Rotem is not just a dear friend of mine, she's actually also my business partner in our incredibly awesome Israeli Hebrew podcast. So we've been cooking up some amazing things together for a while and, honestly, this episode was born out of this simple moment. I was looking at Autumn just the other day and it hit me who better to bring on to tackle the number one question I get from listeners and from clients, a question that so deeply involves nutrition? It's the question that's constantly flooding my DMs, the question that is whispered in fitness classes where people just come here's what it is. It's this, is it, hey D? How do I get my six pack? So Rotem, a registered clinical dietician, is taking time off to be with us today from her busy schedule in her clinic in Tel Aviv, where she helps busy people and professional athletes and anyone who wants to improve their health or anybody who wants to change their body composition. She's taking time off and she's just joining me to tackle this.

Di: 1:42

We're going to break down the science, the myths, and we're also going to give practical steps that you need to take to actually make highly informed decisions regarding these coveted abs of yours. All right, so get ready, because Rotem and I are about to drop some serious knowledge bombs. So let's get into it to drop some serious knowledge bombs. So let's get into it. Welcome to Bodyholic with Dee. No fads, just facts. I'm Dee and I'm here to help you ditch the noise and build a life you love. Let's go. Oh, but wait, I'm not a doctor, so use your common sense. Now let's dive in. I want to know what your take is on the six pack abs. I can imagine because, as a personal trainer, so many people come up to me and they're like what our goal, my goal, is the six pack ab, look. And so, as my nutritionist friend colleague you know, I actually really want to know what you think or how you approach that okay.

Rotem: 2:46

Is this person a female person or male?

Di: 2:49

it's everyone, everyone okay do you get that, or is it more like? Is it more in my sphere, in the fitness sphere?

Rotem: 2:58

um, actually the people I meet here in my clinic usually would not come with this kind of purpose, because they see me online, they see what I talk about, they see what, what I think, so probably their goals would be to lose weight, but not specifically to get this six-pack, because what I think about getting six-pack.

Rotem: 3:22

Perfect. So it's a bit different if we're talking about male or female, because it's just a matter of how much my fat percentage is. And it's different because for male it's easier to get to lower fat percentage and then to get this look of six-pack. For women it's harder, it's just harder. Women need more fat in the body to function, especially if we're talking about their hormones and their ability to have babies. So to get to the low fat percentage and to get this look of six-pack, they need to be in a very low fat percentage.

Rotem: 4:04

and to get this um look of six pack, they need to be in a very low fat percentage like 17, 18, 19, and it's just harder because the body don't want that right you're going, so it's like going against me, like forcing your body yeah, it is it.

Rotem: 4:21

They will probably need to train harder to eat less amount of calories, and it would be harder. So it depends. It just depends how much you want to sacrifice to get this look, especially if you're a woman. And so this is, in general, what I think about it.

Rotem: 4:40

I always reflect to the people who come here and do come with this aim to get a six pack. How much do you want to suffer? How much do you have to give up? Do you want to not eat out? So maybe you can. If you do want to combine everything you love to eat you want to drink wine sometimes, you want to have ice cream sometimes then maybe it's not realistic for you. It's just a matter of what I'm going to give up for. I can tell that when I was in my master's so it was while COVID and I lived in Beersheba, which is a city that there's not many options to eat out, and also it was COVID and then I just got to the point I had those six packs just because I didn't eat out, I didn't drink wine because, no, I wanted.

Rotem: 5:38

It was just part of just nothing to do outside. I was just eating at home all the time and I'm eating healthy, and I didn't have to choose between eating out and and getting six-pack, because the eating out part was just not um existing wow yeah, and I'm not ordering food from home. I don't like this right that's super interesting yeah so that's what you did.

Di: 6:04

I feel like that's actually um, so many people would just love to hear that. Like. All I need to start doing, maybe, is just stop ordering or or going out on a daily basis, eating out on a daily basis true.

Rotem: 6:19

Also, of course, you need to eat healthy, of course, during the day, right, and I'm eating healthy. So my um, I don't want to call it a problem, but I know any other way to phrase it. But my uh, the reason I was not thin enough to have six back before is just because I love to eat out, I love to drink wine, and when I just kind of didn't do it.

Di: 6:43

So it just happened. Yeah, it just happened. That's amazing, Um. So so I am now a client and I walk in and I'm saying to you my goal I feel healthy, I feel great, Um, and my goal is aesthetic. Completely, I just want that six pack. So, from what I'm getting is you know, that might make you actually feel a little bit uncomfortable in terms of your values.

Rotem: 7:14

No, I'm just going to say the truth. I'm just going to give them all the information they need to make the right choice for them.

Rotem: 7:26

And I always say, at some point in your life you might say, okay, this is now so important to me and I'm willing to give up and not eat out and be very strict with my diet to lose this fat and to get those six packs. And at some point in your life you might say I don't want that. I want to combine everything I love and I can be healthy in both ways. Three kilograms or five kilograms more probably will not make you not healthy. It's just going to take your six pack. So you can always choose and both options are okay for me because I'm trying to make people healthy.

Rotem: 8:06

If you want to be more thin because of aesthetic reason, it's yours to choose.

Di: 8:10

Right and okay, I love your approach, I think it's super professional, which is also why we're here Because I love your approach and I think you're super professional, why we're here because I love your approach and I think you're super professional. But I also so what I know. This is super general and you would need so much very specific, individual information. But is there like an outline that you would give your client a basic outline for how to get the six pack, or is it so individual that you actually can't the big outline.

Rotem: 8:48

Yeah, I can say some rules about it. Of course, how to implement that in each person's life is going to be different, but we know about three things we need to do. The first thing, to lose weight and to get a six pack, because usually is a matter of fat percentage more of a muscle mass. So most people would just need to lose weight because the fat just covers the muscles, and so the first thing is to be in calorie deficit. Then, okay, the way to get the calorie deficit gonna be different for each person.

Di: 9:26

So this is that's super important. I just want to really emphasize it, that um. So if, if me and my friend come to autumn and it that she says calorie deficit, the next step is going to be super different for me versus my friend. So it's not just calorie deficit, it's very, very individual.

Rotem: 9:46

It's very individual and I can tell you about people who come here. For example, I can think now of someone who was very thin. She was very thin when she came here, but her nutrition was very bad. She ate only sweets and she ate very bad. So she was thin, but her nutrition was bad. Then, when we just changed some stuff and made it healthier, she lost more weight, even though she was thin beforehand. Then she ended up having six pack very easily because her nutrition was not good before. Even that she was even that she was.

Di: 10:26

So was it more like a? Did she literally lose kilos, or yeah, she?

Rotem: 10:30

lost weight. She lost weight because she was just not a very hungry person and then it was easy to her to just eat some snacks a day and of course those snacks, because it was in high calorie density, gave her a certain amount of calories who kept her in this weight. And when we just change it to foods that are less calorie density and she just lost weight and she got the six pack right. But for other people it might be not that we eat all the snacks. Maybe we eat too much. The amount of food we're eating is too big, or some people would say here in Tel Aviv especially, I drink a lot, I go out a lot, I like wine. Of course, when you drink wine you get the calories without being full, so you can have more calories than for some people it would just be just drink less alcohol so yeah, the way, um, to get this calorie deficit is different.

Rotem: 11:31

So that's the first thing. The second thing is, of course, to consume more protein. Most people I'm not, I don't know if I need to say most people because now it's more common to search for the protein and everything is bamba pro and pasta pro everything fashion.

Rotem: 11:49

Yeah, yeah, it is yeah, um, but we do need to consume more protein and in order to give our body what it needs, to gain the muscle mass. And the third thing is, of course, to go to the gym not to Pilates, not to yoga To actually lift, to the gym, to actually lift, and women especially are not going enough to the gym and are not lifting weights, so that's a big part of it.

Di: 12:23

Yeah, that's something that you and I also discuss a lot. In general and anybody who follows me and is in the Bodyholic community that's like you've got to lift weights.

Di: 12:37

You've got to lift weights. You've got to lift weights and it's not even I'm just going to throw in my fitness perspective that it's not a matter of how many crunches I do. Actually it's how heavy you're lifting in order to stabilize your spine and your body. Your abs are working enough to get that six-pack look in my opinion. So, yes, you can get the definition with crunching as much as you want. Pack look in my opinion. So, yes, you can get the definition with crunching as much as you want, but between planking and lifting weights, just the stabilization of your spine is actually really what it takes.

Di: 13:14

Combined with the nutrition, it is 100% combined with the nutrition. So we said calorie deficit increasing protein and finally, lifting weights. And what is your take on? There's a big thing now in the States I don't know how much it is in Israel or in Europe, but in the States there's a huge fad that actually has been going on for years about cutting and bulking, with the huge fad of competing physique competitions, aesthetic competitions. So I hear about cutting and bulking all the time and I want to know your take on that.

Rotem: 14:02

Okay, so I am a sports dietitian, so I know about it, I know how to guide this method, know about it, I know how to guide this method, and but, as you said, it's it's only serve us for aesthetic manner and it's not. It's kind of not my thing. I just don't don't like it. I don't think it promotes or help, and this is why it's not a thing I'm asking people to do here or telling them like you should do it now. It's just a matter to get more muscle mass and then to still look clean after. So it works, of course. But do I think it's healthy to gain 10 kilograms, or eight kilograms or I don't know how much, and then to be in very strict diet and calorie deficit after? Is it promoting our health? The answer is no and that's your thing.

Di: 15:04

That's kind of what guides you right, like you're always wondering, is it is what I'm saying promoting my client's health? I remember you saying that, yeah yeah, yeah.

Rotem: 15:12

I think it's very important and the first thing is just to look yeah about how healthy the person is gonna be after, even if it's gonna be um two kilograms more. So what I always prefer to tell people here in my clinic is that we just need to be in to live a life which gives us the results we want, even if it would take more time. Okay, it might take more time to gain the muscle mass and to still look clean. If we're doing the things at the same time, like not trying to bulk and then cut. Just do the things at the same time. Eat more protein, go to the, be in a small calorie deficit, so you will probably get the result you want. It will just take more time.

Di: 16:00

And if, let's say, I wanted to prep for the stage, so would you actually prefer that I'll do a competition in about a year or six months and then we could actually just lean me out gradually and continue that physique? Or would you say we have no choice, we'd have to do the cut in bulk, and maybe would you say don't go on stage.

Rotem: 16:28

Okay so yeah, if you go on stage, so you're not doing what you do for health reasons.

Di: 16:37

Right, absolutely.

Rotem: 16:38

And that's different. That's a bit different.

Di: 16:40

It's 100% a sport.

Rotem: 16:42

I know. So when you're trying to get to this physique of going on stage, I think maybe it is better to do this bulking and cutting, because you need to get to a very, very low fat percentage that I think it's hard to maintain for a long period of time.

Rotem: 16:59

Then maybe it's it is smarter to make it this way, um I, so it's just for a short period of time yeah yeah, and it wouldn't I think it would be just harder to to decrease the amount of calorie you eat more and more and more as you go closer to the competition, because you'll be in a low amount of calories for a long period of time Right. But, it's not a health reason. You're doing this, so it's different. Right.

Di: 17:34

It's purely physique, Purely it's. I've spoken to many competitors, physique competitors, and it really it's a very interesting sport because it is down to the muscle fiber. It is down to the muscle fiber. It is down to the muscle fiber. It's all about the symmetry between the sides and between, like, the different muscles of every joint and it's super interesting when you hear them and the way they train and the way they eat. But yeah, I'm assuming that if you want to show like every single spindle you, you have to.

Rotem: 18:17

It's different. Professional sport is not always healthy. I was a professional runner. Is it healthy to run? I don't know. More than 100 kilometers a week, I'm not sure.

Di: 18:30

I probably would say no yeah. I would probably say no, cause I'm thinking of your knees and I'm thinking of your back, would say no.

Rotem: 18:34

Yeah, I would probably say no, because I'm thinking of of your knees and I'm thinking of your back and my knees are okay now, but uh, yeah, at that time my body was very tired and not always the best condition, and so, yeah, but my purpose was not to be healthier. So the same thing with going on a stage. But when we're talking to the general population and we want them to be healthy, of course we want them to look good as well, but the first aim always for a clinical dietitian is just to make people healthy. So this hopefully, hopefully.

Rotem: 19:07

That's what guides yeah, most of us any given dietitian right.

Di: 19:10

Hopefully, most of us we, you and I actually know someone who what guides him is the six pack hmm, I can think about some. I'm thinking of one okay, I know, I know what you're thinking of that if there is no six pack, he's not doing his job. Um, no, that's definitely not us, and so I guess, is there any from what I'm getting from you? The one practical advice. There are two practical things that I'm getting and maybe you want to add to me.

Di: 19:45

So, first of all, you would probably want to seek professional advice from a clinical dietitian who knows your individual situation, desires health state, and then the other thing is maybe not doing anything too drastic and doing something that could be sustainable over time. That's what I'm getting from you.

Rotem: 20:13

Yeah, yeah. I think that's the most important thing and I'm always saying to my clients, when we, when they started thinking about maybe I should skip the carbohydrates in lunch, I always ask them can you do that for the rest of your life or for the next, I don't know one year or two years? Because if you're just going to do it now to lose weight, but then you can't do it forever and at some point you would start eating carbohydrates for lunch again, then you will gain the weight that you lost, the weight that you lost. This is why those diets of trying to drink shakes now or, I don't know, can I say, specific brands like Herbalife or all those things that try to replace your food with drinks, ah, meal replacement If you're not going to do this for the rest of your life and it's not going to be sustainable for you.

Rotem: 21:11

you will gain the weight that you lost and this is why people that are trying all kind of weird diets they lose the weight, then they gain it and plus more, because on the way down, they lost muscle mass and now, when they got to this point that they're thinner, they also lost muscle mass. Then, when they gain the weight, the body will stop at the point it has the same amount of muscle mass and this is why people are gaining a little bit more. Yeah, you just blew my mind.

Di: 21:44

Yeah, I didn't know that it had to do with. I just thought that maybe it was just the deprivation and ghrelin and all kinds of you know hormones that are messing with you that go back to, like the, the preservation of the body from starvation mode, but you're just, you're saying something else.

Rotem: 22:02

That's no, it's all related, but this is just one theory that is very strong, that, yeah, the body wants to, um, get back to the same amount of muscle mass and if you lost it on your way down? And then you gain fat, then you gain lots of fat and maybe you're not going to the gym because if you drop the diet, probably you're not going to the gym now. So when you gain the weight very fast, then probably you're gaining more fat than muscle. Yeah, then the body gains more.

Di: 22:32

I'm just going to say, I'm just going to say, I'm just going to reiterate, because it's so important I think, that the your body wants to maintain muscle Muscle is like the most important organ, I think the brain is more important.

Rotem: 22:47

Well, I know many people with lots of muscle and not enough brain. I would say you're not right now.

Di: 23:01

I accept that. I accept the challenge. Okay, all right. Other than the brain, use your brain to develop muscle mass.

Rotem: 23:07

Yeah, okay.

Di: 23:09

Because it's the driving force of longevity, of life and of aesthetics. You know, if you're, if you're, if you want to the six pack, look then definitely you want to drive muscle mass. Um, cool, I think this is, this is really interesting. And so what is your, I do? I have to just say that there were so many things that you said up until that I was like, oh, let's get, let's talk about, but then, I.

Di: 23:42

But then I was like, stay focused on the six pack, stay focused on the six pack. But I did like I could have gotten into easily into the carbohydrate, um and and the hyper, and so we're going to have to keep that for another time so we can stay focused. But basically, is there one thing, other than what we just said, that you would say to our listeners about the six pack obsession? I would, I would even go as far as to say the six pack obsession.

Di: 24:12

One thing in term of nutritional thing and either a tip or um or both, or just your thoughts on it or your approach, the one more thing that you would want to say.

Rotem: 24:28

I think what people are missing in this way of trying to look better or be healthier or both, is to don't forget to listen to what your body says to you. Because when we follow a menu or a strict diet and everything is written with how much do I need to eat, and I follow a strict thing, then lots of people miss the fact that maybe your body today is more or less hungry than it was yesterday and people are getting to the point that they just lose the the way to listen to your body, just just listen what your body needs, and because they're doing this for such long period of time and sometimes, when we listen to our body, we can lose weight easily, easier, and it's important in any Including days where you eat a little bit more.

Rotem: 25:27

Yeah, because, if we think about it, we don't move or we don't burn the same amount of calories every day. Why are we trying to eat the same amount of food every day? Even if we're trying to eat the same amount of food every day, even if we're trying to to make the calorie deficit, if today I moved, I don't know I burned 2 000 calories and tomorrow I'm going to burn a little bit more because I know I'm just walking a little bit more on the street and then maybe my body will be a bit more hungry and I need to listen to that.

Di: 25:57

Yep.

Rotem: 25:58

So if we're losing touch with what our body needs, it's going to come back to us after, when we're gaining the weight, and it's just going to make a big mess.

Di: 26:11

Now I can just hear people's questions right now. So of course that's true for the gen pop and you know men and women. But now what happens when cause a lot of women freak out there, the things that I hear with people who come to the studio regarding day, I'm serious, it gets to this resolution. Maybe it is for you too, but I don't. I don't have this. But like, exactly, they know one week before their period and they know like day two and a half of their period and like everything is so clear to them how their body operates in, exactly, like around the period. And so I'm curious, to curious to know, um, is what you just said also relevant to that? Like the, let's say, someone gets really hungry one week before. Do you listen to that or?

Rotem: 27:07

of course you should listen to it, but I think that if you don't listen to it, then your body will still take what it needs. Okay, and most people who are trying to ignore the signals of hunger and fullness find themselves in a position of like, oh, I just grab a small thing, just some cashews, then the banana and then, and then you get to the point you still eat the same amount of calories. It was just not in a meal, um, not just sitting, and yeah, your body's doing what it needs to do yeah, no matter what I always give the example.

Rotem: 27:42

I hope it will translate good in english. But if you go to the mall and you need to pee, and then you go, you open the restroom and it's very dirty, then you, you and you really need to pee and you have a way to go home like one hour on your car. And then you think and then if you really need to pee now, then probably you will go to the dirty restroom because you have one hour ride home. But if you won't have this urgent need to go to the restroom, you can say, okay, I'll just wait one hour and go home and go home, and it's similar to when we're very hungry.

Rotem: 28:32

If we are very hungry, the body will do what it needs. We cannot resist it. We cannot resist, uh, the hunger we have, especially not if we're talking about long periods of time, like if you want to make a specific diet for one month. Okay, maybe you have the motivation and you can wait till you get home. But but for long periods of time, the body will take what it needs. So this is why I forgot what you asked with my story.

Di: 29:02

No, this is not right I was talking about is there a difference between women?

Rotem: 29:07

So yeah, when we're talking about the menstrual cycle. So women, yeah, they tend to be hungrier in the second phase in the luteal phase. Yeah, so they will be more hungry, and this is why they should eat more, because anyway the body will take what it needs. So, yeah, you can just choose to add 100, 200 calories, just another chicken breast or another yogurt, and then you feel calm and you be okay yeah, you, and if you want this into your body, it will anyway take what it needs.

Rotem: 29:45

And then women come and say, oh, I really want to eat sweets all the time because you don't allow yourself to eat food, because you feel like I had my lunch, I don't need to eat more. But you're not full enough. And then you start to look for something sweet to eat more, small stuff that gives you the same amount of calories as if you would just add more I don't know two more spoons of rice interesting so it is true that we would feel hungrier, hungrier, yeah for sure, hungrier.

Rotem: 30:18

and it's yeah for sure, hungrier. It's the second phase, the luteal phase, and we just need to give the body what it needs, and then you just opened up another.

Di: 30:26

So, other than the two spoons of rice that you just said, you also said chicken breast and yogurt. And so I'm wondering was that purposely? Did you say like add more protein to these women in the luteal phase?

Rotem: 30:41

if they don't eat enough protein.

Di: 30:44

Of course they should eat, and no, but we know that protein um will make you a more satiated, so yeah, of course I was wondering if that has to do if you said that specifically because maybe it has to do with the luteal phase and it maybe could promote their health more around the period.

Rotem: 31:06

Not only around the period. Always Okay, so it is.

Di: 31:11

It's general population kind of advice.

Rotem: 31:12

Yeah, it is.

Di: 31:14

Amazing, wow. So next time I'm just going to tell everybody that I just decided, and you can, of course, say no, but next time we're going to talk about carbohydrates.

Rotem: 31:25

I want to talk about carbohydrates. All right, that's what we're going to do, ok.

Di: 31:29

And thank you so much for joining us today. I love this conversation, as usual. Yes, thank you. All right, we'll see you for the car. Hey, thanks so much for tuning in and if this hit home, please share it with your crew. Likes, comments, shares show your loved ones you care.