Di: 0:00

Welcome back to Bodyholic with Di. I am truly delighted to introduce our guest for today, Pauline Brown, a luminary in the world of luxury. So Pauline's career is absolutely remarkable by any measure. She's the leading voice in the luxury goods sector, a respected faculty member at Columbia Business School and the author of the super insightful book Aesthetic Intelligence. She also shares her expertise through her weekly radio show on SiriusXM, which is called the Other AI, and she lends her strategic vision to several corporate boards, including the Neiman Marcus Group. And her impressive background also includes serving as chairman of the North America at LVMH.

Di: 0:57

So, yeah, that's a big deal. I'm going to let that sink in for a minute. Let that sink in for a minute. She actually, at LVMH, she provided leadership for over 70 iconic brands. Yeah, I'm going to let that sink in too, and I'll just share with you that I was so impressed by Pauline's deep understanding of the luxury landscape, particularly her insights on the evolving definition of luxury and the increasing emphasis on wellbeing. Our conversation was both fascinating and enlightening, and I'm eager to share it with you all today. So we're going to be delving into the nuances of the shift in luxury and exploring why wellness is actually becoming so central in this world and what it means for consumers and brands alike. So kick back, enjoy. Welcome to Bodyholic with Dee. No fads, just facts. I'm Dee and I'm here to help you ditch the noise and build a life you love. Let's go. Oh, but wait, I'm not a doctor, so use your common sense. Now let's dive in. Pauline Brown, thank you so much for joining me today. This is really an honor and I'm super excited.

Pauline: 2:20

Thank you. Thank you for having me on your podcast. I'm excited for the conversation as well.

Di: 2:34

Basically, as far as I'm concerned, you are the world's leading expert on luxury and you have a unique perspective because of that on how this concept has been evolving, and I'd love to hear your insights on the growing trend of wellness as the new luxury, even though when you and I have spoken before, you were saying it's actually not that new. So I'd love to just hear your perspective.

Pauline: 2:59

Yeah, well, a couple of initial thoughts on that topic. First of all, I'm not sure I'm the world's leading expert on luxury. I feel like I'm probably the world's biggest critic of luxury, and by that I mean somebody who came from the luxury world, who still will gravitate towards some luxury brands not all who still appreciates the ideals that often luxury represents but at the same time is very discomforted by the massification and commercialization and I would say, dilution of what is past as luxury in the current world. So if we go back and just I'll just give you a very quick history lesson, first of all, luxury really was not even an industry until call it 50 years ago, not to say, if you went back hundreds of years ago, that people weren't making exquisite things. It was usually, by the way, made for and on behalf of the royal families. There were very few people in the world who had the means or the rights to showcase these, these fineries, but the idea that it was actually industrialized so we call it an industry is very, very new. Industry is very, very new and while you could actually go down 2,000 years and find relics of these great pieces of jewelry that were whether it was the pharaohs or the Maharajas in years past that were still being made and today we would qualify as luxurious.

Pauline: 4:42

I think that the turning point and really where the modern history of luxury starts, is with Louis XIV and the Court of Versailles and a culture said we're actually going to use our luxury goods as a way to exert our military and political and even cultural superiority over neighboring regions. And so often when we think of luxury today, one of the reasons we're so connected to it with kind of regal French heritage is because of that very strategic move that was started then and, you know, flash forward now a couple of hundred years and maybe I won't even take you into the 21st century, but like latter half of the 20th century where, you know, in the beginning, as luxury goods started to get exported around the world and the world of consumers wasn't just royal families but could be self-made industrialists you know the robber barons and so forth you know it still was very rarefied and there was this very clear definition of what luxury was and I always kind of describe it as three simple criteria. These were products and goods that were hard to find, hard to make, lasted forever, very simple, and it wasn't really until, as we approached the end of the 20th century, that the idea of how it's made, for whom it's made, how accessible it is to consume, to buy, that that really became what we know it to be today, and in the process. Nowadays, we're really just talking about expensive brands. We're talking about brands many times. They're not hard to make. Many of the luxury products, including a Vuitton Neverfull bag, are made in factories. They're not made by hand, they're not made with the finest leather. The reason that they command such a big price point is because of the associations with the name, because the presentation in their stores is exciting and expensive, all sorts of other factors, and they're also not hard to find, because there's, you know, hundreds of stores around the world. You can even click through your app, you know you could buy. So a lot of the basic tenets had gone away. There are a few brands and I think Hermes is probably the most disciplined among the big names that have adhered to the old rules. Most, though, have strayed.

Pauline: 7:29

So I'm going to take you now to the latter part of your question, which is this idea that real luxury hasn't changed much. The things that we really want today, the things that we desire, our dreams, our aspirations. That is not just about status, it's not just about associations or buying things that are associated with certain messages. It is about leading a better life, about striving for a better life, surrounding ourselves with things that feel and look and are beautiful, truly well-designed and originally designed and with an intricacy that's not easy to replicate. And you know your point on wellness.

Pauline: 8:16

This is the one thing that, on the one hand, money can buy. You know, we see an inverse population or an inverse relationship in our population between those who are healthiest and those who are wealthiest, right Meaning. It's actually not inverse, it's direct relationship, and so some of it is because people who have means have access to the practices and the inputs that lead to a healthier life. But some of it is that, I think, for people who have everything, this is one thing that is still kind of hard to get. You still have to work hard to particularly as you get older, to be healthy and to have vibrancy and to live your best life in all sorts of ways. And so the rarity, the hard to find, hard to make, last forever like that is so critical here, and it's not something that can be industrialized.

Di: 9:20

That was so fascinating, pauline, that really was a history lesson just now. That was so fascinating, pauline, that was. That really was a history lesson just now. That was amazing. So basically, it's it that really does adhere to those three rules the, the wellness.

Di: 9:42

I I first came up to you saying, you know, this connection that I'm seeing being formed between wellness and and um and luxury is just so fascinating to me because you know, I come from, you know big group fitness classes and uh, and where I live, the healthcare is also so broad and so accessible, more than the US, way more than the US and it's just fascinating to me to see this emerge also where I live, in Tel Aviv, also between workout clothes and luxury. That has been formed very strongly in my opinion, and I'm seeing that more and more here and also between you know, from, from skincare to retreats to, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, the list is just going on and on. So I guess, um, beyond the traditional markers of luxury, uh, that we just discussed, what are some of the key drivers behind the increasing demand for wellness-focused offerings among luxury consumers?

Pauline: 10:56

Yeah. So I guess there's two ways to come at that question. There's one among luxury consumers, which really implies among people who have means. What do they care about those that might have, you know, the most access and options? And then there's just the question of how do we define what is the desire for luxury among a broad population? What are people willing to pay for? Because there's a lot of people out there who are not luxury consumers, meaning they couldn't care less about a handbag or watches, but they will spend every last penny on this luxury.

Pauline: 11:33

So, as much as anything, it's a value system. I could say the same, by the way, among people who love fashion. There are people who have a lot of money, warren Buffett, and he doesn't spend more on fashion than my own father would have in his day. It's just not his value. He doesn't even spend more than my father on a car right, it doesn't appeal to him. I think he almost goes out of his way not to. So I think it's important to break down who we're really talking to and what they're willing to spend up.

Pauline: 12:11

But the real issue, you know and Bernard Arnault, my former boss, often says he doesn't even use the word luxury because it's so misused and so vague. He uses the word desirability and let's just say what are people desiring when it comes to looking and feeling and commanding wellness right? Some of it does have to do is very cosmetic, like there's a lot of people spending a lot of money on personal trainers. Spending a lot of money on personal trainers, maybe on ingestibles, on Botox, not because of anything other than it makes them look younger, that there's sort of a front that comes with it, that they feel and maybe are not wrong has market power, but that we should probably take that out of the equation, because I don't think that's really what you're focused on. I think you're focused on more inner wellness and bodily wellness.

Pauline: 13:08

Just the name bodyholic, you know, sort of suggests something more than are you able to get into a size two pair of jeans, correct school and I think this has gotten outright freakish of people who just don't want to die and they're putting tons of money and time and scientific resources into this longevity thing. Yes, it's interesting. Certainly, if someone could promise me an extra couple of years of quality living, I'd take it, you know, as I will eventually approach 100, if I'm so lucky, but I don't have any desire actually to live to 200. Or at least just I don't have any, any illusion that if I round for an extra 100 years that that would be a quality 100. So there is a bit of a distortion around that. But again, that's another sort of category within this very wide and ever so expanding space. When I think of true health, you know, and I guess true health would start by the idea that you know your body is in complete alignment, that you're not aging as fast as your years, or certainly not shouldn't be faster than your years, and that you go through any given day or month with, you know, with energy and with positivity. Right, because there's mental wellness as well. That goes right. And, and I think the question is what you know, the question you're asking me is what do people want above and beyond Like and and what are they looking for? What are the, the, the services or products that are proponents of that? Yeah Well, you know, when I came into adulthood, the first wave were gyms, and I remember back in the 90s I joined when I was first on my own in the city, post-college, like I joined an Equinox, and it felt like such an indulgence.

Pauline: 15:24

I can't remember if I paid 150 a month or maybe it was 89 a month, like going back, but whatever it was, it felt really expensive to this entry level professional and I remember being struck by like how modern and streamlined and well designed and club like the gym was Right. And the same years later they opened the first ever partnership around a Reebok club and that seemed so state-of-the-art to me and so cool and so luxurious. Now I look at any of those, as you know, not a whole lot better than a Planet Fitness, right, they're, on average, cleaner. They all have sort of a spa room in the back. They all have crowded classes. You know, they all have a snack bar in the front. To me, that's the difference between, maybe, an A mall and a B mall, right.

Di: 16:16

That's also. It kind of goes against what you were saying, like this is no longer limited availability, Like if the class is jam-packed limited availability, like if the class is jam packed.

Pauline: 16:28

Yeah, that, that, to me, is a is as bad as as being stuck in traffic, right, right, right. So, and then to the next wave was okay. So now I'm a member of a good club, but I'm still not more fit than I was before I became a member. So I'm going to get a personal trainer, and I remember the first time, which probably was shortly thereafter, in the 90s, I had my first ever and it felt like such an indulgence and I felt very guilty. You know, in generations past, the only people who would have a personal trainer would be either celebrities or uber rich people. And here I am and many others doing it, and it became such a big commercial component of these gyms business model that they promoted it heavily to me. Now, again, I know so many people who have that and the only way that they think of it is it ensures that I get to the gym or ensures that I actually do something. Again, it's not seen. It's not like a massage, right. It's just seen as a facilitator, right?

Di: 17:32

Accountability.

Pauline: 17:35

So I think the latest wave, because we could kind of go through each of the many chapters leading up to this, but the wave that I see right now which will be massified and democratized just like the others, but it hasn't yet is around.

Pauline: 17:50

Wellness travel Is going to a resort that in another time, would have been kind of like a rehab, but it's without the disease or the addiction that is taking over telling me what to do, but doing it in a way that makes me feel embraced, not ashamed, that doesn't lean on me to take the initiative because I won't, and that by the end of that three-day weekend or one week away, I genuinely come back feeling refreshed. Yeah, it's a form of rehab for those who can afford, and what I'm seeing among non-health-oriented hotels, even the likes of a Ritz Carlton, is that they're incorporating more and more spa-like features even in their hotel offering for business travelers. So, yeah, so taking this idea of travel and making it not just about discovering a new part of the world or getting business done, but also taking care of yourself whilst you're on the road taking care of yourself whilst you're on the road.

Di: 19:08

I would even say that just taking time off from the rat race, from the everyday, is a luxury. And then, of course, you know spending. Spending on the spa and the hotel and the resort is, you know, the next level, yeah, um, so I Let me ask you there is also, I feel that, the trend of superfoods you know the high quality ingredients, exotic berries, you know things like that would be. If you would consider that to be luxury and, um, I would also, I'm interested in what you think about, like the elegant packaging, the design that we're seeing on different creams and things like that, uh, is there? I don't even actually know if there is exclusivity and personalization.

Pauline: 20:06

I think that's becoming very homogenized and also very deceptive. So I just actually saw a Netflix movie I'm not promoting the movie, but it did raise an important point in conjunction with the question and it was a multi-part movie called Apple Cider Vinegar and it was all about this Australian influencer who faked a cancer diagnosis so that she could build her platform for promoting lifestyle that would be self-healing and would take a vulnerable population and purported to say, if you just eat right and go to Mexico for yoga, that you will be cured. And of course, it did a huge disservice and I see, well, that's an extreme case, you know, and this woman was outed. And thank God, and most sensible people, if they, you know, get a cancer diagnosis, cancer diagnosis don't think that they can self-treat with food. But I do find the vast majority of trends around how we eat or, for the matter, of what we put on our skin, are playing a game that is so marketing-fueled and so light on science and I'm incredibly cynical.

Pauline: 21:30

Look, do I think it's important to eat? Well, yes, do I think that? You know, left on a desert island with some good natural, you know, agricultural offerings, that my body could tell me what I need and I could have a balanced diet. Do I need to find the next berry or the next tea concoction? No, and so I'm not saying that trend is going away. It'll morph. It keeps doing that from you know one soybean until they discover that that's estrogen inducing.

Pauline: 22:07

While I was in India last week actually, everyone was touting something called a fox nut and it kind of looks like pirate booty or something, but it basically is fox nut. They said it's such a healthy snack. I eat it all day long and I'm looking at it and I'm thinking. It's just like when you have those veggie chips which, if you deconstructed it, it's just powder sprinkled in potato starch or something. It won't kill you, although I guess anything in excess, but it's not nourishing you. I don't believe it and I think ultimately, if you go back to the tenets of luxury, that there's something timeless about it, there's something non-trendy, there's something deeply human and compelling in its authenticity that this is completely lacking in general.

Di: 23:04

Everything. Also, pauline, you know the other things that I'm doing with my time and business, so I mean, everything you're saying is just extremely fascinating to me on a personal level. I'm sure everybody's going to enjoy it, but I'm really soaking it up. There's also I'm curious to hear what you think about the trend or maybe it's not a trend, maybe this is one of those things that's actually valuable. The minimalism, I feel, has also become a trend. But again, I'm saying, maybe it's more than that. Even roughing it out like going rucking have you heard of rucking?

Pauline: 23:48

No, but I'm already intrigued.

Di: 23:50

So rucking is actually a when you hike or you run or you walk with a pack of weights on you and, um, this is now like you can buy very, very high end packs. I know it sounds, it sounds crazy, but this is really a big deal now. So roughing it, minimalist retreats I feel like there's something here that's also coming into the broader picture of luxury wellness. And what can we learn from that, from the minimalism and roughing it?

Pauline: 24:27

So minimalism when it comes to a stylistic choice like quiet luxury, that's going to go run through its cycle. We're already going back into something more maximalist because we got bored. You know you only need so many. You know, beige, cashmere, hoodies, whatever. But what I don't think we're going to abandon is our increasing, at least at the luxury end, increasing insistence on quality, not just on something that looks good but something that feels good. You know, and unfortunately, when you are shopping online, if, if I want to, just if I want to buy a really exquisite uh vest from Laura Piana, I can actually see something probably pretty comparable at a JCrew, maybe even at Azera, if I just looked at the images online and I just wanted that color green and I just wanted that silhouette or that v-neck. But when the two or three different items arrive and they sit on your body, you can feel the difference. And I'm not saying the lower piano is worth it to most people, but I'm saying we have to get beyond how, you know, we can feel when there's blends that might have a little more of an itchiness, and I don't think we've been trained to listen to that enough. So, when it comes to this other idea of so. My point being there is that quality over quantity is not only wellness for the body, but wellness for the planet. When it comes to messaging, I think you're spot on to something.

Pauline: 26:17

There is a Instagram feed that I recently came across called, and it's about this woman. It's referred to as Evalvita, and she's a tribal woman, to as Ivalvita, and she's a tribal woman. She lives in and I can't remember if it's somewhere in Mexico or Central America, but she lives in a culture where, throughout the day, in skirts these sort of, you know, very colorful skirts women are running around, and they're running around in these sort of self-made cloth shoes that would replicate something more like a slipper, and they run sort of. If you looked at the cumulative effect of how much they're running, it's like ultra marathoning. And so this woman was captured and Nike offered to make a set of shoes for her, because she was running, you know, and she was beating out all these other women when she actually went into you know, long distance races and she said why do I need Nike? I'm winning on shoes that the women in my community and I have always worn women in my community, I have always worn and you look at her and she's not, you know, relative to the other well-trained kind of manufactured runners that a Nike would normally sponsor at these events. Like, she doesn't look like that, she actually runs in the long skirt, but she's winning and she is healthy. She wouldn't have the stamina and the muscle and so forth to do what she does.

Pauline: 27:48

And so I think what it's bringing to mind for us is, you know, those years and years of marketing that you need the waffle soul in order to even get through a quarter marathon. You know kind of defies that. Did you really need it? What are you really buying into when you get a pair of Jordans? Well, you're, you know, and I do case studies on Nike all the time, because they are brilliant marketers, but they're marketing a dream, and the dream is what you're paying for, not really the sneaker, and in this woman's case, she doesn't need the dream. She has other dreams and her slippers are doing just fine. So I think to your, because I think there's always going to be a mass population that is going to love, you know, whatever they see on a Super Bowl ad. But you know, really discriminating. People are increasingly seeing through it and demanding things that are not just well-marketed, but things that really have meaning and gravitas and staying power, and that's a different category altogether.

Di: 28:59

So you were talking about community and and the, the staying power. And the staying power I'm wondering, because now I'm thinking about Lululemon, actually, because they actually started as a community. They started as yoga retreats, if I'm correct, and then they moved on to the branding and the clothing, and so what do you think about that, about the brands that actually have created communities around them or started from communities or ended up with communities, like Aloe Yoga, I think. Also, they created these online wellness communities, wellness communities. What do you think about the sense of community and belonging for these, for the modern luxury consumer, like, is there a need, maybe that sense of connection that we are lacking more and more as we digitize the world that the luxury brands have plugged into?

Pauline: 30:12

For sure. Community, you know, talk about a history lesson. I mean community has always been important and good brands. You know, I'm going back to the 70s when Coca-Cola said you know, I want to teach the world to sing, and you see sort of the whole world holding hands. This idea of bringing people together, whether it's in small tribes or in this sort of global tribe which is very fractured right now, that's very important. It is more important right now because we have a crisis of loneliness and social media has exacerbated it. And social media has exacerbated it.

Pauline: 31:11

I think, the sort of polarization of politics, not just in the US, but, you know, as you see it, in your own country. What has happened that was a relatively peaceful coexistence, maybe not, you know, without its incidences is now two narratives that are irreconcilable, right, and where the only solution is complete separation. Or, you know, let's just say I'd like to think there's a better solution, but that's where we are Looking at Ukraine and Russia. Most Ukrainians have a lot of Russian bloods and a lot of Russians have Ukrainian family. These are not two distinctly different genetic strains, these are people. I mean, ukraine was part of the Soviet. That has now been settled in is something that is going to lead to, even if there is a treaty, it'll be multigenerational hostilities, right? So I sort of see those are the extreme. And then you have the mild you know the milder frictions that are happening.

Pauline: 32:09

And because of all that and because we are so divorced you know from in-person contact relative to where, what have humans have enjoyed, you know, in there since their beginnings, I think we are looking for community in other ways. I think we look at it. We look for brands to bring us together. We look for entertainment to do more than just have us passively sit in a movie theater. We want to go to a Taylor Swift concert where we're joining forces with other girls and feeling like we're part of her club and dressing like her. I mean live events and in general, hospitality has surged, in a way that product sales, which had a little bit of a bump but kind of leveled off in the last two years, because that's where people are spending their money.

Pauline: 33:03

Talking about the Mulu 11, I think there were a few things that allowed it to kind of come together the way it has, and the community piece was a big one. I think the fact that they took ownership of a movement that ironically, predates almost any other sport I can think of. They've been practicing this for thousands of years in India and yet somehow Lululemon can say that they started the movement or popularized it. It's kind of ironic.

Pauline: 33:34

I think that there also is a body positivity.

Pauline: 33:37

That was well-timed because it's the kind, but through its fabrication and its shaping or silhouettes, there's no woman who could say I go in those stores and I can't find anything I could wear right. I mean, there's something in there for every shape and we live in a time where that has been another form of divisiveness. Most of the lines like if you just take a woman size six woman and she tries on 10 different designer pieces size six, they will fit her drastically differently. It's a real challenge. It's a challenge for the buyer, for the women, and it's a challenge for the makers, that is, I think that they kind of they were able to do it in a way that you're you could rationalize buying these exercise clothes because you wear it all like all day long. If you were just going to wear it for one hour class, you probably wouldn't want to spend north of a hundred dollars for a pair of pants right so I think all of those things came together and in the right time, in the right way.

Pauline: 34:45

Uh, that allowed it to to sort of take hold. Aloe is a fast follower. Their edge is that they have sexier designs.

Di: 34:55

Right, they actually. I don't know. Maybe you can tell me, but I don't know if any women can go into an aloe store and find the yes no.

Pauline: 35:05

So what aloe has that Lululemon doesn't have is sex appeal. What Lululemon has that Aloe doesn't have is accessibility, right. So I think that they're there and that's a real challenge. But I think, you know, aloe has decided, you know, off of a smaller base, that that's the woman we're going to go for and that's the woman that, whether others can copy her or not, they admire her, and so it gives it a bit more cachet, like everything.

Pauline: 35:37

I mean the thing about fashion, even the word fashion, and both of these are fashion brands. The word fashion is just like. You can be in fashion, you can get out of fashion, and you can get out of fashion pretty quickly. You know we've all seen what happened to a once hot Victoria's secret brand and there's no coming back there. You know there'll be a steady decline for the next decade. They, uh, what made them fashionable is now making them very unfashionable. So right, so, but and and I think that that will be true for anyone who's in the, who's on the end of this wellness business where they're making things, and you know the question as well is so the other thing that has been productized is routines, is workout rituals, right? You have like the Barry's Boot Camp and Bikram Yoga, and you have, you know the barry's boot camp and your bikram yoga, and you have you know the the soul cycle.

Pauline: 36:32

You know there are these different things and they also bring together these elements of community yeah of ritual, of, uh, visual branding, of experiential design, but the risk is even a soul cycle which, which was seemed unstoppable, you know, a few years ago, kind of hit a wall. How do you grow from, from a base that's so associated with something so specific and maybe something that didn't ultimately give you all that you hoped? It didn't really give you community, give you an hour of being with people, gave you an hour of being with people. It didn't really put an end to your, you know, wellness woes, because you need to combine it with other things and it's pretty intense. So I think this is always going to be. The challenge is chasing something that oftentimes the marketers are over-promising.

Di: 37:24

Mm-hmm, I was reading about marketing in luxury and there was now I'm forgetting, I don't think it was Balenciaga, but it was one of the very, very high end, maybe it was Louis Vuitton. You're probably going to tell me just by me describing so it was a tote bag that basically there is no way that it cost to make more than 50 bucks. There's no way, but it was selling for $3,500. And, um, it's that's when, when you're talking about kind of like hitting a wall or speaking to the emotional, um, like that's selling to the emotions, that's marketing to the emotions. That's not. Uh, you know they're, they're. Barry's boot camp is maybe not going to be very scalable because you know they're very, very focused on one thing and it might not speak to everybody, and so they would have to really work hard to scale and not hit a wall. But manufacturing something for 50 bucks and selling it for 3,500, I mean that's super creative, super emotional, like hitting someone's pain point of they just really want to be associated with a specific status. Yep, but yeah, tell me.

Pauline: 39:00

First of all, I think you're referring to one collection that Balenciaga came out with a little while ago. Balenciaga came out with a little while ago. They and I don't approve of this strategy, but it was really done in a sort of snarky way like saying, if you're cool enough to buy something that clearly doesn't have inherent value, but it is ours that that's what you're buying. And it was sort of done, on the one hand, tongue in cheek, a little bit like a golden goose sneaker that's very worn and the more worn it is somehow, the more value it has, um, or perceived value, I think. But there's a part of me that says any self-respecting person doesn't need to play into that, doesn't need or buy into that. Worse yet, um, and it gets them attention. And in an industry where it's very hard to get attention, there's too many brands competing for too few uh customers with too many products at too high price. Um, but I would say it's this is these are extreme examples but even brands that are really well respected, like like Dior.

Pauline: 40:09

You know there was a scandal last summer because there was a raid on an Italian factory that was essentially using slave labor practices, paying people working in that factory you know, very little money, money that they would have probably would have gotten in Vietnam. But the company could say we're made in Italy and they were a subcontractor to Armani and to Dior. And it came out, for example, that a Dior bag that was sourced through this factory in Italy, that Dior bought it from them at a cost of $57 and then was retailing it at I believe it was $3,500. So, and that's not a silly little canvas tote bag, that's one of the more appreciated Dior bags, but the point being even the most coveted ones. You know the supply chain is pretty lumpy. You know the supply chain is pretty lumpy and the value creation is going to a very small part of the chain and it's the reason that you know Bernard Arnault is a top three wealthiest man in the world. It's not because he's giving away any value then why what?

Di: 41:27

what is it?

Pauline: 41:29

Well, it does speak to people. Well, two things Um. Number one the reason the companies get away with that up to a point, eventually it catches up. But the reason they do is that most people are just not properly educated. Meaning, if you develop an eye for quality, you may not know that that was only $57 a pop because there was slave labor involved, but you certainly will know that for $3,500, I'm giving away a lot of value. And so, number one, I think most people have to, unless they want to waste money, really know where the value is.

Pauline: 42:10

And there are brands out there that make beautiful things that are fairly priced. And the closer you can get to understanding whether it's in a tailored garment or a piece of jewelry like, how is it made? How good are the ingredients that go into it? It's no different than what I would say on the food scene If you have a good palate, I don't care how much they're going to charge on the menu. You'll know if it's a quality meal, if it not only tastes good but if it sits well, if the next day you still feel like you were well nourished or you felt like you just had a tasty caloric meal that didn't sit well, Like. These are the things you have to educate yourself on. And then the second thing, which is maybe even a bigger problem, is people are not confident and that you often assume that buying the expensive item, that number one, well, they're the authority If it has this name on it, it makes me feel better, or I think I feel better because I can tell the rest of the world that you know that I'm one of them, that I can wear that Chanel bag or that YSL bag, and I think if you're confident and you have an eye for quality, then you can make wise choices and maybe you'll find a piece in YSL or Chanel and maybe you will completely reject it.

Pauline: 43:29

I mentioned to you offline that I was in India, you know, yes, while I was traveling through the country, I saw, you know, a lot of junky straw materials and but I saw some exquisite bedding that cost a fraction there of what I would have paid for the same item in a fancy store in New York. The jewelry on par, some of the fine jewelry I saw was on par with what I would expect to see at a Cartier or a Van Cleef. Wow. And so you, you know, most people are not going to get on a plane and go to India and try to figure out what is good and what isn't. I get it, but I'm just saying don't assume, when you walk in these big name stores, that you're necessarily getting a fair price or as good a quality as you would want.

Di: 44:19

I think that's a very important lesson, and we started with that history, that wonderful history lesson, with that history, that wonderful history lesson, and we're kind of going to end in that, in a circle, because the question that comes to my mind right now is what do you think about influencer marketing? Because and the reason I'm associating that is because I guess it's the um Royals that are basically, that's today's influencer, yeah Right. So so I'm thinking to myself you know, we were talking about Balenciaga and I'm immediately thinking about Kanye West and Kim Kardashian and they're so closely linked, um, and what are your thoughts on that?

Pauline: 45:09

Yeah Well, so first of all, why something is interesting and why it's desirable are two different things. You know we've all been paying attention maybe more than we should to the Blake Lively, justin Baldoni. You know Blake Lively, justin Baldoni. You know Battleground, and yet that doesn't signal that their movie, which was a fine movie, is Oscar worthy. You know movies that are up for the Oscars, that is luxury in the film world. This is mass consumption and the drama that goes into that, just like the drama that goes into the whole Kardashian plan, is sort of sticky and interesting to watch. But I don't think we should confuse that with desirability and I don't think we should confuse it with, you know, that which is real luxury, which is this idea of sort of uh, you know the authenticity we talked about before, that it's built to last, it's, you know, uh, hard to find.

Pauline: 46:17

That there's craftsmanship and so forth. There's none. None of the kardashians, maybe, except for the mom, who's a very good businesswoman, have a craft right. They're not actors, they're not singers, they're not. They don't even style themselves. They have stylists, they have, you know, and they're not, you know.

Pauline: 46:33

But but they've created a narrative where, as a society kind of involved, you know and and so terms of the commercial implications, you know, someone like a Kim Kardashian is associated with many successful brands, most notably with Skims. Right, great success, really well executed. We forget, though, that graveyard is full of brands that have done things with her, maybe not to the extent that Skims did, maybe just had her do a post, or maybe, you know, had some sort of skincare alliance a few years ago. The graveyard is full of them just because she associated with them, didn't launch them, didn't reinforce the marketing messages they needed. So you know. So I think the influencer marketing to do it well is trickier and harder than it looks, meaning that it can work. It certainly can get attention on a brand or an idea, but it has to start with a really credible marriage between the talent and the proposition. I think it also has to be executed thoughtfully and with originality.

Pauline: 47:54

You know when Hailey Bieber what people forget. So she has a successful skincare brand, rhodes, right now. She actually was the spokesperson, the cover model or cover person. I guess cover model for Bare, for bare essentials, when bare essentials was just was a rapid descent. None of us remember that because it didn't work right, it didn't work. Kendall Jenner did a collaboration with Estee Lauder. It did not save the Estee Lauder brand from going downhill because it didn't work. So I think you know, just as I would have said back in my beauty days, I started my career at Estee Lauder and I used to do deals around licensing and new brand partnerships. You know a lot of them. Just because somebody is popular or somebody is beautiful doesn't mean that that collaboration will make sense or will really add up to more than the one plus one will add up to more than two and that's a science and an art. But I'm skeptical about throwing a lot of money at that with the maybe expectation that it's good enough, that it's what it takes.

Di: 49:10

That's super interesting. It basically just emphasizes that what you start, your bottom line, I think, which is the value. What are your values? What are you willing to spend your money on? What are you seeking? If you're seeking something in particular, you will find it. You will research it, you will find it. You don't need a big splash like the Balenciaga posts and the big letters and the bling and everything. It seems to me like. If you have your heart and mindset on something, you will go and find.

Pauline: 49:49

The hard to make, hard to find last forever I want to say you know, I do spend a lot of my time these days working with companies, big and small, around what I call aesthetic strategies and I always tell them aesthetics is not about style, right, or if it is, it's really the substance of style. Good aesthetics is not whether Pauline likes it or doesn't. There's no hierarchy here. It's about a very rich and full and honest external expression of an internal belief system, right. And when you get that right, people see the brand or see the person and they like it. They may not replicate it or mimic it, but they like that visibility. And most people become stylistically invisible, just as most brands become homogenized because they look at the outside world and they'll say I'll take a little bit from this one and a little bit from this one into the process. There's nothingness, right. So I like that clarity, but the clarity has to start from within. It does not start from the outside world.

Di: 51:06

Wow, what a way to conclude. I just wrote that in big for myself. That is so important, what a lesson, and it's been a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for joining me.

Pauline: 51:19

Thank you for having me and keep doing what you're doing, Because you know, when I talk about that connectivity with the inner self, you can't do it if your body is not in as good a shape as your imagination and your mental acuity. So keep doing what you're doing.

Di: 51:39

Thank you, Thank you, hey. Thanks so much for tuning in and if this hit home, please share it with your crew. Likes, comments, shares show your loved ones you care.