Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome back to Bodyholic. Today you are in for such a treat. So way back in January 13th 2023, my friend and colleague, virginia Kinkle, came onto the show to specifically talk about female body composition and the intricacies of the topic. This remains our most downloaded and listened to episode, and for good reason. Actually, it's a several-fold reasoning, and a lot of it has to do also with the fact that Virginia is brilliant, and a lot of it also has to do with the fact that there's not enough on women on this topic out there.

Speaker 1: 0:46

Today I have her coming on to talk about the surprising challenges that body composition competitors deal with, and really Virginia is the best person to talk about this. She is a 20-year veteran in the fitness industry to talk about this. She is a 20-year veteran in the fitness industry. She has masterfully blended her extensive education, hands-on experience and unwavering passion to empower countless individuals, probably in transforming their lives. She is the driving force behind Body Mass Gym and Body Mass Composition Testing, and there you really see her commitment to knowledge sharing and client empowerment truly shines. By leveraging cutting edge DEXA technology and resting metabolic rate testing alongside bespoke programming, body mass sets a gold standard in the field. I can honestly tell you that I just love the way she thinks, the way she works and also, beyond, her impactful professional endeavors. Virginia has also graced and this is part of our conversation the bodybuilding stage since 2012, competing in figure and bikini divisions at local, national and international levels. She artfully balances these athletic pursuits with her roles as a wife to her business partner, chris, and a loving mother to their two young children and their two wonderful dogs.

Speaker 1: 2:35

So this is a delight, an absolute delight, and a privilege to have Virginia on. I know you're going to enjoy this. It and I can tell you now, like it really was just me having such a thrill of just talking to someone so like-minded, so educated, so passionate about the same things I am. Really I could do this all day and let me know what you think. All right, make sure that you rate us at the end, that you give us five stars and that you share with people so that we can keep growing and keep getting information out there.

Speaker 1: 3:20

Without further ado. Here's Virginia. Without further ado. Here's Virginia. Welcome to Bodyholic with Dee. No fads, just facts. I'm Dee and I'm here to help you ditch the noise and build a life you love. Let's go, oh, but wait, I'm not a doctor, so use your common sense. Now let's dive in. So today we have my friend and colleague, virginia Kinkle, and one of the reasons I'm so incredibly excited. There are a million reasons why I just keep wanting to have her back on the podcast, but our last conversation is still the number one downloaded episode on Bodyholic.

Speaker 2: 4:00

Awesome.

Speaker 1: 4:01

And it's every single week. It's still listened to and I think was it two years ago that we recorded it yeah, I think so yeah yeah, and it is still the number one, and that just goes to show you how important what Virginia has to say, how important it is. So here we are. Thank you so much for joining me again.

Speaker 2: 4:24

You're so welcome.

Speaker 1: 4:37

And that's a really exciting stat to hear. So thank you. Is something that is intriguing for everybody, and a lot more and more people are really interested in the whole body composition world.

Speaker 2: 4:55

Absolutely, and I think even the type of person who's interested in is expanding and growing and evolving. So it's really neat to see that it's not just people hyper-focused on the aesthetic of their physique but branching out more into overall health.

Speaker 1: 5:11

Tell me a little bit more about what you just said. That's super interesting to me.

Speaker 2: 5:14

A lot of times people will ask once I tell them what I do, how.

Speaker 2: 5:19

I have a company that does DEXA and body composition.

Speaker 2: 5:22

They ask about what our typical client is, and if you had asked me this question five years ago, it would have been either the body builder or the aspiring bodybuilder type even if they're not planning to step on stage but somebody who really wants a deep understanding of their body composition, of the amount of muscle and lean mass they have and really how they can optimize from an internal physiological standpoint, what the data is. That therefore translates into how they look aesthetically is who we used to really focus on and who used to be drawn to DEXAs. Now, I would say 90 to 95% of the people we see are people who are coming in because they know that it's valuable to have an understanding of their health for the long term, and so, whether they're coming from a place of healthy unhealthy, having worked out forever, just starting this journey, they know that this data will help shape the quality of their life far more than what it is they just look like on the outside. So it's really been neat to witness that change firsthand.

Speaker 1: 6:34

So, so incredibly amazing. I mean, both of you and I have been in the industry I'm going to call it the industry long enough to actually understand the importance of what you just said and how, how incredible it is.

Speaker 1: 6:49

Um, yeah, Especially for women, I think A hundred percent, especially for women, and one of the things I wanted to uh, I guess I guess the main topic of today. I wanted to know the surprising things that people aren't aware of regarding prepping for the stage which is, of course, the ultimate. It's the pinnacle of body composition, right? So people are interested in their body composition, but then there are the people who take it to the next level and compete over the aesthetics and symmetry next level and compete over the aesthetics and symmetry.

Speaker 1: 7:25

So we're all thinking you know, there's lots of diet, there's lots of training.

Speaker 2: 7:39

What is what you think is the one truly unexpected hurdle that a lot of competitors face while prepping, and you hit the nail on the head with that is there's a lot of diet, there's a lot of working out leading uppping and you hit the nail on the head with that is there's a lot of diet, there's a lot of working out leading up to it. And when I started gosh, what was that like? 13, 14 years ago now, when I first started, I was like, well, you know, I'm a trainer, I eat well, I can diet, I work out well, so like, doesn't that equal stepping on stage? And I think that in and of itself is that it is so much more than just eating well and working out and then being able to get on stage. There's this hurdle that you have to take that really bumps it up to the next level. And one of the most surprising things, I think, for anybody who's ever competed or those who've um, who are starting the journey, one of the first things they realize is truly the amount of dedication it takes. It's not just I may be somebody who goes to the gym five days a week and preps my food and plans ahead, and that is the fundamental foundation of it, but getting from being a fitness person to a competitor, all of the hyper focus on that and the variability of that, not only does it change, but it has to be prioritized, it has to be your number one focus. So this is a great example.

Speaker 2: 9:05

This past weekend I was at a friend's bachelorette party and I'm loosely in prep right now. But we went to a restaurant and I scoured. The menu on the restaurant was like OK, this is the closest thing that I can find, and I brought some protein powder with me and so I was able to kind of stay on track. If I was very serious in the depths of prep, I would have brought every single bit of my food in my Tupperwares, had it stored in the fridge, the freezer there, and it's three o'clock in the afternoon and everyone else is going on this wine tour and here I am with my prepared food eating out of the tub. That's when I need to eat and that's my number one priority.

Speaker 2: 9:53

And that jump is the hardest thing for most people who are just starting out, because normally you can have a little bit of that flexibility. Even if you are a fitness person and a healthy and a hyper-focused person, you can have that flexibility. If you're prepping to compete on stage, that really gets lost. So it's not just with food, it's also with having to do your cardio, having to do your check-ins, having to prioritize sleep shift from okay, I'm doing well and I'm in the top tier of what I do fitness health wise to jumping to that like top 2% is a very big jump if you're not expecting it.

Speaker 1: 10:35

It's the prioritization that is. I mean letting you're saying goodbye to your friends while they go on a wine tour and just hanging out. Would you go on the wine tour? Would you take the foods with you? Does that make you feel weird?

Speaker 2: 10:52

So I have gotten to the point where I am totally desensitized to the weird nuances of bodybuilding. I would literally bring a Tupperware with cold rice, chicken, veggies and eat it on the wine tour Like I don't care to me. It's something that is important, that I need to do, and if you want to look at me like I'm a strange person sitting on a park bench eating my cold food out of a Tupperware, okay, I'm all right with that. I think a lot of, though, being able to feel okay in their skin with those kinds of odd behaviors is challenging. I eat during prep, especially at least 75% of my meals in the car, because you have to eat at a certain time and you're off and you're out and about doing things, and so I'm just bringing Tupperwares in the car and that's where it ends up being a lot of times that I'm eating my meals, and so you you kind of have to desensitize yourself to that piece of it.

Speaker 1: 11:54

The, the calm and relaxed way you're, you're talking right now. I can, I can just imagine how many people are just like freaking out over the thought. But but you're, is it? Maybe it's because you've done it a gazillion times that, or maybe maybe it's just you went cause, really you're, you're an athlete. You're a high performing athlete. That's what it is.

Speaker 1: 12:20

So when people want to win no, because, well, I'll tell you, the mindset of an, of a high performing athlete is very different, because the goal is to win. Yeah, whether you're racing, whether you're stepping on stage, whether you're playing basketball, whether you know, there are so many, there's a range of activities, but if you are really in the competitive space, you want to win and you will do anything to win. And so I'm wondering is that that might be also the mindset that you have? So you know you're going to win this and you don't care what people think about you eating out of a tap room.

Speaker 2: 12:59

I think you totally said it right. It's like that is your mindset, that is your priority. And to your point earlier, I think it's it's a combination of all those factors. I'm a little bit of a person who doesn't really care what people think about me, and not in a negative way, but everybody is going to have opinions about anything and everything and I, if you have a negative opinion about me, I kind of just let it brush off my shoulder, I'm okay with that.

Speaker 2: 13:31

So I think there's that component fundamentally. I also think there is the years and years of practice of having done this, where you do become desensitized to it, and the athlete mentality. So it's like that perfect storm of all three of those where you know, I, I, if that's what I need to do, that's what I need to do If my carry on for a trip that I'm going on is a soft cooler of frozen meals, that's what my carry on is and I'm going to have to check my bag of my clothes because I can't carry that on, you know.

Speaker 1: 13:58

Right, right. I admire that so much. Um, I just have to make a side note. Anybody who has a negative opinion of Virginia you're just weird, because Virginia is the nicest person on the planet. I appreciate that.

Speaker 1: 14:15

So actually you kind of touched on this already. I was also thinking to myself and wondering, like what is a psychological or emotional challenge that might be? I was wondering if there's a component of that that you would say this is a surprising challenge. I feel like you touched on it, but you might be desensitized to it. Like you said, those are your words. Yes or maybe something that you'd still deal with, that that you didn't mention.

Speaker 2: 14:47

I think one of the absolute biggest pieces is now having gone through a bunch of competition prep and also having been pregnant and had kids. There's a lot of parallels that you can kind of draw. So when you're in a competition prep for most people, parallels that you can kind of draw. So when you're in a competition prep for most people roughly 16 to 20-ish weeks you know you spend four or five months getting ready for the competition, just like in pregnancy. You don't wake up one morning and all of a sudden you're 40 weeks pregnant. You're like what happened to my body. It is this gradual transition of intensity that starts from the beginning and it eases its way and so you acclimate to it along the way. So by the time you're hitting your peak week, which is the final week leading up to a competition, that's the most intense. You're not doing that cold turkey. You have eased into it for months getting to that point, just like with pregnancy. But then, once you have the baby, once you step on stage and compete, all of a sudden, in an instant, things change. So when you are competing, all of a sudden you don't have to wake up super early to do your cardio, you don't have to be so diligent about how you're tracking and there is this kind of compounding desire of things that you've not been able to do for the last several months. For most people it's certain foods they've not been able to eat, I mean literally. I know competitors that have like albums saved on their phone of like these are the foods I'm going to eat after I get off stage.

Speaker 2: 16:28

Get off stage and there is the like again, not a hyper-focus to have to spend so many hours in the gym, so many hours set on this goal and the psychological piece of having such tunnel vision leading to the stage and then all of a sudden it just disappears and it's gone, is so challenging for so many first-time competitors.

Speaker 2: 16:43

Competitors because all of a sudden they're like well, now what, I reach it and now what?

Speaker 2: 16:49

And what also happens in that moment is you are coming from the absolute peak of body composition.

Speaker 2: 16:56

Like you had mentioned earlier, this is the pinnacle and now all of a sudden, in a very short period of time, that can change in a 180. So you're going from this deep extreme that's been a slow, progressive extreme for a lot of first-time competitors, especially that it just ricochets and rebounds back so fast and that psychologically can really throw you off, not just from a goals perspective of I've been working towards these goals and now I don't have goals, now my hands are up in the air but also I have lost X amount of pounds or X amount percent body fat and now here I am and now all of a sudden I'm gaining it back and I kind of feel out of control because I don't have this end point. So most athletes look at the competition as the end point. If you are working with a coach as I highly encourage everybody to do all aspects of it they will help guide you to understand that the show day is not the end point. There is a whole phase and period of time after that.

Speaker 1: 18:04

And that is actually really scary to me. That you know the parallel of pregnancy just because of that speaks to me, so I can really understand the weird feeling of not having the baby moving in your belly and then being like, oh my God, what's wrong. And then it's like, oh yeah, it's not my belly anymore.

Speaker 1: 18:25

Yeah, it's, it's so. It's like, oh yeah, it's not in my belly anymore. Yeah, it's, it's so, it's so drastic. Um, I, I can really imagine that not having a very professional, very responsible coach is it can be a huge problem. Yes, for you, you're kind of like always going from one show to the next in terms of like, maybe per year or I don't know how many times what it looks like for you, your schedule early 2021 and late 2023 ish, where I had my two kids.

Speaker 2: 19:13

With the exception of that, it's pretty much that what you just mentioned, where it's kind of transitioning out of one show a little bit of an ebb and flow and into the next show. And because I've gotten to this point where I've competed so much and I'm very familiar with my body and I know how it responds to certain changes that I make, it becomes easier for lack of better word for me to be able to get into this prep, because I am not drifting so far afterwards After a show. There's a lot of girls backstage that have these, like I mean cookies, like something I've never seen before, Like it's like diabetes in a little package.

Speaker 1: 19:52

Oh my gosh, it's like this thick.

Speaker 2: 19:54

It's huge, and for so many people that's like I'm craving that. I've not been able to have something like this for however many months, and this is what I need right now. And I'm not knocking anybody that wants to eat something like that after their competition, and I'm not knocking anybody that wants to eat something like that after their competition. But for me personally, because I've done this so many times, because my behaviors and lifestyle when I'm not competing is very reflective of me competing in terms of my consistency with the gym and the types of foods that I eat and when I eat them, for me, I don't have that huge pendulum swing, so it's a lot easier for me then to start to get ready for the next competition, because I don't have to dig myself out of the hole. So, even if it's like a six-month window between competitions, I'm not bouncing all the way to this extreme in order to have to get back here.

Speaker 1: 20:45

Yep in order to have to get back here. Yep, I know you're not knocking anybody and I appreciate that, but I do have to say that to me it sounds actually pretty dangerous. Also, two things sound kind of dangerous to me. One is that your trophy? Is that big diabetes in a bag? Is that big diabetes in a bag? Is that your trophy? Or is the experience your trophy? And I think the shift, the mindset shift of like I really want to fully be present and experience the whole effect of being on stage and with other people who have been going through something similar like me, that in itself I think should be more of the focus as opposed to that. What am I going to eat after the show? Because then I think it's, it's we're, we're kind of, and I I'm not a psychologist, but I think maybe that's kind of on the verge of something disordered.

Speaker 2: 21:50

Absolutely, and I think what you just said with all of that hit the nail on the head with one of the points that I wanted to make sure that I kind of made during this conversation is there. Well, backtracking a little bit back to your point, it should be the experience and what you are going through and how you challenge yourself to take something that you enjoy, that you're passionate about health, fitness, whatever that might be, and take it to the next level is what it should be. I think for a lot of people it's that can get lost. I don't think that they don't have that, but I think it can get lost in the muck of all the other more superficial stuff. But one of the big points that I wanted to make with this is competing. Maybe on the outside, to somebody who's not super familiar to it looks like wow, this is the epitome of health. Somebody is really focused on their nutrition and they're really focused on what it is that they're doing at the gym and how they kind of do that every day to get to a certain end point.

Speaker 2: 22:58

Competing is not healthy. I will say that from my personal opinion, it is mentally not healthy. It is physically not healthy. It is something that you do at an extreme point to achieve an outcome, whether it's experience-based or whether it's like. What you hadn't mentioned was the physical trophy itself of like winning and getting place. So the extremes with which you put your body through are not healthy. The caloric restriction, the over-exercising, the tax, how it taxes your relationships with people, is not healthy.

Speaker 2: 23:37

And so, to your point, I'm not a psychologist either, but like if all of this work you're putting in is just to be able to get some like food experienced reward like that is so not healthy. It is so much healthier to be able to get some like food experienced reward Like that is so not healthy. It is so much healthier to be somebody that ate a cookie throughout the week because you want a cookie, not, I can't, I can't, I can't. Now here, right.

Speaker 2: 23:58

And I think it's common for a lot of women myself included, especially when I first started off who have experienced eating disorders or disordered eating patterns, to come into this and all of a sudden that comes back to the forefront. You think that you're kind of past that point in your life and all of a sudden here it is like back with a vengeance and you see it first and I think that can be really tough. I think if you are not in a very psychologically sound place with your relationship with food, and even those who've done it forever who feel like, no, I've got this under control there are still moments where that starts to kind of come knocking again and you have to reassess. But it can be really detrimental if you're not at that point of total and complete resolution with what your relationship is with food.

Speaker 1: 24:58

Really kind of like know thyself before, know thyself at this current state before you go in. Absolutely yeah. So this is really fascinating. So far, I have written down the challenges. The first one I think I have down as the prioritization, like what it takes. It's the whole next level. I mean this is like really athletic prioritization bowl. I mean this is like really athletic prioritization, absolutely Athletic and competitive.

Speaker 2: 25:32

On that note, is having a support system. Yes, a coach, like we had mentioned. But for me personally, like my husband, helps so much throughout this process of like he, I mean, makes me my food and I'm walking out the door and he's like here's your bowl of. Like he, I mean, makes me my food and I'm walking out the door and he's like here's your bowl of whatever, whatever. And he knows what I need, when I need it, and to have that makes it so much easier on me but also just on our relationship, because there's not this like fighting, like I can't have that, you don't know what I can or can't have, and so to have a support system of somebody, even if they're not my husband's never going to step on stage, but he understands what it looks like and what it takes and is there to do the little things day in and day out, to be supportive, is huge.

Speaker 1: 26:17

That is so huge. That is so huge because I'm thinking actually, let's be honest, I think a whole bunch of women were just like I want someone like that. He's making your food.

Speaker 2: 26:33

Yes, he is so amazing and I am very fortunate to have him. But it makes prepping so much easier because I can. There's not much you can delegate during a prep, but if there's little things here and there you can delegate, that makes the load slightly less on you. It's huge.

Speaker 1: 26:52

I would even go as to say that, like, if you, if you're into it, make sure, like, talk to people and say hey, do you think you can help me out with this and that, or you know, like, if they're not, like Chris, you know, maybe spell it out for them, absolutely, and you know he's not somebody that's going to sit on the couch with like a bag of potato chips.

Speaker 2: 27:16

That's just not how he is. I mean, his career is in health and fitness as well, so that's just not something we ever do. But if he were like that, that would be really really hard for me to be around, be very taxing on our relationship.

Speaker 1: 27:30

And so yeah that's support. That's definitely a point to like bring up when you're reaching out and asking for support. Just like, maybe don't eat the bag of chips in front of my face.

Speaker 2: 27:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally there's definitely been times where I've like seen in the trash can some like ice cream, something or other, and he'll like literally eat it when I'm not home and like put it in the trash as like a very like kind and respectful thing of like I want to have this. I know you can't have this and I'm not going to do it in front of you, so he'll like have it at times when I'm not home.

Speaker 1: 28:02

That's so nice. I love that. That's so nice. Um, I love that. So and then so. The other thing I just want to, you know, reiterate, is actually the anti-climax, the. What kind of happens afterwards? How long does it take to prep? Did you say 45, four?

Speaker 2: 28:20

to five months. Yeah, For most people they usually do about a 16 to 20 week prep. Now, for most people that are really having to go through body composition change, there are a lot of months and years even leading up to that of these like ebbs and flow cycles of working out in a more loose capacity of building muscle and losing fat and building muscle and losing fat, but like the hyper-focused timeframe, usually about four to five months.

Speaker 1: 28:47

So, especially with what you just described, where there's like ebbs and flows for even years and then you finish and you get off stage. That's really I mean I'm thinking of like that you've got to. You really need that coach or you need to create some kind of support system, I'm assuming, Like for that period of what would you say? That period of time is Like duration wise. Yeah, yeah, Like you step off stage and now what do you need for like mental support and also physical support, Like what's next?

Speaker 2: 29:28

It's interesting because there's a very, very brief transition. So about a week after a show and any competitor can kind of tell you this is like. Afterwards you get off stage, you eat some kind of big meal that's high in carbs and high in fats, which have been low for months and months, and your body physically really responds to that and all of a sudden you're like I'm still very lean because my body is not storing this as fat yet and it is filling my glycogen stores, my muscles are full, my body looks great, and so you're like look it, I can eat like this and still look amazing for a very short window of time. A very short window of time, because your body is inevitably going to start storing that as fat as your caloric intake shoots way up and your, your output, your caloric output, goes way down. Um, so that is the time that you kind of need somebody to help keep you in check and not just be like look, I can eat like this and look like this. You need somebody on the outside to be like you can't, you can see this right now for a day, but really you can't. And so we need to get back on track and start a. A lot of times they call it a reverse, but like kind of gradual increase of your caloric intake over time after prep, versus just like okay, stage is over that way up, and I think one of the biggest things is having that support system Like I talked about.

Speaker 2: 31:00

Who understands that transition after the show?

Speaker 2: 31:05

And it's hard because most people aren't going to understand that. So what's going to happen in most relationships is oh D, you're finally done competing Like let's go out to this restaurant that we wanted to do. Let's go, like we wanted to get ice cream, we wanted to go out for drinks. So you have friends and family and people that are like hey, I get my friends back, I get my spouse back, oh my gosh, this for months. And so they unintentionally help fuel that where you're like sure you're right, I've not been able to do this for months and months, and now I want to be able to do that, and so, again, that pendulum is swinging so far the other direction, and so what I really think most athletes need is the support system leading up to it, but also the support system that's going to help keep you on track after, when you're in the throes of wanting to do all the things that you weren't able to do. That can subtly be like let's rein it in again. I'm going to make dinner tonight.

Speaker 1: 32:03

Oh look, dinner is veggies and a lean protein and something that's pretty good quality food, and that's what you need in your life which is hard, right, very hard, and it's not only, it's, I think, also the fear, or or just not wanting to disappoint your friends, your loved ones, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 32:25

Because you're like I've not been able to be a good friend and I put that in quotes because it's just a shift but I've not been able to be a good friend for the last few months. So now here I am and I'm able to do that.

Speaker 1: 32:37

And maybe a good friend is really just a good conversation and not necessarily ice cream, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 32:46

And that is like a big overall truth way beyond eating is it doesn't have to be revolving around food. But yeah, you're totally right.

Speaker 1: 32:57

Absolutely. Then number three, I have the um, the fact that the competitions are not mentally or physically healthy. Really, I have to, you know, say, just like every extreme, every extreme sports, I am still not convinced that marathons are healthy.

Speaker 2: 33:18

I absolutely agree with that, yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:21

Like I'm, I'm, I hear, I hear both sides, but really like if, if you run 10 K, you know I'm, I'm on board with that, that's like, that's cool. Uh, but you know, prepping for a marathon, getting to the marathon, actually trying to win the marathon itself, you know that's, that's super taxing. And there the whole idea. I just recently did an episode on overtraining syndrome and really how incredibly dangerous it can be. Yes, yes, so so, yes, the the structure is super important and, um, it's also very important to go into it under, just like you like, this is not when you're at the extreme point of the prep. The two days I don't know what is what a two days look like before the prep. I'm assuming they don't look healthy. Yeah, like before the show.

Speaker 2: 34:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, um. So it depends on the division that you're competing in, and that's a big reason why I compete in the bikini division now, which is a it's the least muscular, least lean, so it's something that is a little bit more in line with my body, meaning I don't have to make as extreme of changes. When I was competing in figure I was making a lot more of these extreme changes and you know, in the last 10 years since I've competed in figure there has been a lot of evolution of science-based coaches and people who have come forth and care more about the athlete health. But there is a lot of the two days leading up to it you are completely carb depleting going into that peak week. So your carbs are at a low, low, low. So the Monday, tuesday, Wednesday before a show you are, I mean, at a point where cognitively functioning is very hard. I mean I remember being at a job at I was a fitness manager at a big gym in DC and on the radio this was the Tuesday before a competition somebody called. They were like manager on duty, we need you at the front desk and I was like you really expect me to get up and walk the 20 feet to go to that front desk Like my legs cannot carry me right now and it's like that extreme of a state because you are carb depleting so much.

Speaker 2: 35:45

And then what we what happens is the few days leading up, you start to carb load with the idea of filling your glycogen stores to totally fill out your muscle on stage, simultaneously dehydrating and there's a lot of people that will or won't dehydrate. But when I was doing figure where I needed to be leaner and more muscular and more dry, looking on stage, you're cutting out water, cutting out water, cutting out water. So you're like decreasing carbs and then drastically increasing carbs and cutting out water. And I just remember being at a point where I would brush my teeth like the day before a show, and I'll be like sucking the water out of the toothbrush oh my God, virginia. And it is so extreme. And that's like again 10 years ago, where knowledge was where it was. I was putting all of my faith in my coaches Like you tell me what to do, I'll do whatever it takes. And that's what was happening and I had this turning point in 2016.

Speaker 2: 36:42

After a show of like this is not healthy, I eventually want to show of like this is not healthy. I eventually want to, you know, have kids and have a balanced relationship with my sport and my nutrition. This is not okay for me and I stepped back from competing for a few years and then switched over to bikini because it was something that was much more sustainable. So now, going into a competition from this standpoint of bikini leading up into it, I still moderately carb deplete and carb load. I don't change anything with my hydration. I'm still drinking water all throughout the day and now the prep leading up to it is more just a change in my workouts where I'm like easing up on the workout load and I'm doing things like skin prep, where I'm exfoliating and I'm like starting layers of the tanning process, and it's more of that versus these drastic extremes with nutrition.

Speaker 1: 37:41

Um, wow, the dehydration that's. That's the part that's like just pulling me to, like just thinking about it, it's just healthy. Exactly To the point it is not healthy. You were probably when, when they said manager to the front desk, you were probably like forget the fact that you were physically just depleted and didn't want to get up and go to. But also you were probably I know me when I'm hangry. Yes, yes, I'm like. To me it sounded like cause. If that were me I'd be like do you fucking expect?

Speaker 2: 38:18

I know exactly. And then you're like what am I going to deal with? Is this somebody that's going to have some kind of a complaint that I'm going to have to try to like put on my manager that can be able to talk to, right? You know, it's so, it's. It's hard. A lot of competitors, um, depending on what they do career wise, will take off a couple of days before a show to just get their stuff together or if they have to travel. But a lot of it is like I don't have the mental bandwidth to do my job.

Speaker 1: 38:47

But a lot of it is like I don't have the mental bandwidth to do my job, yeah, and also like not to burn bridges, not to get fired yeah for sure. Oh, my gosh, all right, so what other? So what other surprising challenge do you want to throw at me that this is?

Speaker 2: 39:07

one that I love Because I was like I want to make sure that I mentioned this. So you've had kids, I have kids. There's, by default, this level of modesty that goes completely out the window, not just at your like OBGYN appointments leading up to it, but like the actual birthing process. Modesty kind of goes out the window. And so I feel like there's a lot of women who you know might be in a locker room changing and someone's like oh, you're going to change in front of other people. You're like listen, I've had kids. Like this goes out the window.

Speaker 2: 39:39

Backstage, when you are leading up to a competition, you are wearing a piece of fabric that is about this big and sparkly, and somebody is tanning you where you are literally standing butt naked, arms up, spread legs so somebody can spray tan you. Then you turn around, butt naked, spread legs. They say, okay, bend over, got to get like all the cracks and crevices for the tan there is. You have absolutely zero modesty and I think for a lot of competitors going into like, oh, I've got to get my tan. Like they don't expect that. It is literally I did not know that. Walk over butt naked and stand there and a stranger, a stranger, they do it all day, every day. They are not phased one bit by this, but for you.

Speaker 1: 40:30

Oh, it's not like your buddy doing it.

Speaker 2: 40:33

No, it's they have, like professionals that you do, you can have somebody do it for you, but the person that's doing it for you has to know what they're doing and has to like be very diligent with it, because your tan can really make or break things. So most people will do competitions, will have their preferred vendor. That's like set up at the hotel or the venue doing it and you just have to strip butt naked, go over there, stand, spread eagle and let somebody spray you in all your nooks and crannies. So that is a level of something that most people are not prepared for.

Speaker 1: 41:11

I had no idea.

Speaker 2: 41:13

Yep, yeah.

Speaker 1: 41:14

I had no idea.

Speaker 2: 41:15

And you're so like, like now I'm desensitized to it. Right Like I get there, I know what to expect, but my first time I was there and I was like right Cause you let, but you can't not do that.

Speaker 1: 41:27

Oh my God, virginia, did you breastfeed? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know if you're like me, but I get to to the point where I literally forget who is in the room. I don't care, I forget. And like I'm sorry, you know, I think to myself and after I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry if I made that person uncomfortable. Um, but, and like I'm sorry, you know, I think to myself and after I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry if I made that person uncomfortable. But you know, I'm not, I don't at that moment, I definitely don't care.

Speaker 2: 41:54

Yeah, and it's so true. I feel like in this conversation I'm like there actually are a lot of parallels of like postpartum, to competing just in different ways.

Speaker 1: 42:04

Wow, that that that super interesting. I love. That one Is there. Is there another one that you had in mind that you want to throw at me? I have questions but like but if you have another?

Speaker 2: 42:20

surprising this one. This one is significantly less exciting, but along the lines of that is the smell of competition. Tan is so specific. It is like I don't even know what the scent or the flavor is of it. But I recently got a body wash that, whatever is the flavor or scent that's in competition, tan is in that body wash. I'm like I can't use this. It like gives me PTSD because it smells like tan. I have this candle that somebody gifted me and it has that like lingering nuance of that scent and I'm like I cannot have this candle around because it gives me I wouldn't say PTSD.

Speaker 2: 42:59

Right, it's not like it's a bad but it's so specific in your mind, like I don't want this tan on me, so therefore I do not want this body wash on me that smells like this tan. So there's that component of it. But also when you do your tan leading up to the competition, there are certain chemical reactions where, like deodorant or certain like body washes, will counteract the tan. So you like smell like the tanner, but you also smell like BO and you're stinky and afterwards you just want to shower.

Speaker 1: 43:31

So, like.

Speaker 2: 43:32

That's what I crave after. A show is not. The food is like the shower and getting the tan off and it lingers on you. Like you can shower and scrub and take three showers a day and try to get up and the tan will linger on you for like 10 days.

Speaker 1: 43:51

Oh my God, like it's like gasoline kind of Wow.

Speaker 2: 43:55

So along the lines of like what's healthy and not healthy? Probably not healthy to have some chemical that is absorbed into you so deeply that you can't get it off, but it's a very interesting facet of competing, for sure.

Speaker 1: 44:10

This whole conversation. You're saying things that are just like so fascinating to me, Like you're really letting us into, into the peak week the final week.

Speaker 1: 44:18

You mentioned one thing that was very counterintuitive to me until you explained it to me. And then, of course, it makes so much sense the loading actually, in order to make your muscles more defined, you actually start eating carbs. Yeah, yep, and that that to me was very surprising, of course you know. Now, scientifically, I'm like, oh, of course that's so interesting, but I had no idea Leading up to it. Yeah, is there anything else that happens in that peak week?

Speaker 2: 45:02

that is, would I guess, be counterintuitive week that is would, I guess, be counterintuitive. So it's fascinating because this past show I did last November, so like four or five months ago, during peak week. I was curious. I was like, oh, I'm doing a local show, I'm not, I don't have to travel.

Speaker 2: 45:18

I did a DEXA scan three various times during peak week. I did it a week out from the show. I did it like the I can't remember if it was like Tuesday or Wednesday of peak week when I was like carb depleted. And then I did it the Friday before the show on Saturday when I had carbs back up. And it was so fascinating because even though I didn't have a lot of fat mass that I had to lose to step on stage in that last week I would have to pull up the exact numbers, but I want to say I lost something like three or three and a half pounds of just fat in that last week without having to do something too, too extreme for me.

Speaker 2: 45:55

So it's just interesting to see how, if you are consistent with what you give your body and you change that stimulus a little bit, how your body starts to respond to it. So for me, seeing the science side and the data side of this is what we do, with the goal of trying to look like this on stage, but we're like, oh, statistically, like this is actually what's happening. So it was like the first scan, my lean mass was high, my fat mass was low. Then I did a scan in the middle of peak week where I was carb depleted my lean mass, because your glycogen stores are included in that lean mass. My lean mass was down and my fat mass dropped a little bit. And then, two days later, going into the competition as I carved back up, my lean mass was back up because I was refilling those glycogen stores and my fat continued to drop.

Speaker 2: 46:43

That's really amazing it's like fascinating, because you're like, well, this is what's supposed to happen. But here I am actually getting the data and seeing that it's happening. But the idea of carb depletion is so that your body is utilizing those last final bits of any fat that you have stored as an energy source. You're running on your backup generator. No wonder why you feel miserable, right, right. And then you get that final bit of fat loss and then it's like bam, let me fill you up with carbs to fill out the muscle, to fill out the glycogen, so you look full and your muscles are popping on stage with it. So so, yeah, that's just amazing for me, for what I do, work wise, but also personally as I go through. It was fascinating to really see what the data was, and I, you know I plan to try to do that again, and so super fascinating, yeah, super fascinating.

Speaker 1: 47:37

Virginia, I want to share this, this thing that I saw just a couple of days ago, knowing and knowing that I was going to talk to you and kind of stuck with me. So, um, I saw this story. This person I follow on Instagram, um, she is very much into weight lifting, power lifting, like that's, that's her thing, um, and she posted a story and I rarely go into stories, it's actually a thing, and it's funny that I actually went story and I rarely go into stories. It's actually a thing and it's funny that I actually went in and I saw this specific post. But she was. She said here's a reminder for your wellbeing, something along the lines of your wellbeing doesn't mean that you have to prep for stage, yes, or something like that.

Speaker 1: 48:31

And she was being very critical. Actually, she was being very critical and I was like I have to bring this up with Virginia. I think I didn't appreciate her criticism. I like pretty much everything she says. I think she's, I think she's, I think she's great. Specifically here, I was like, maybe, knowing you, um, and and knowing several people who have stepped on stage, I really do understand, um, and I think you educated me. I really do understand the competition behind it, I really understand the science behind it. Um, and, and I just I wonder what you would say to her, knowing that she's like a super professional. Yeah, what would you say to her?

Speaker 2: 49:20

What was the quote? Again, no, she was.

Speaker 1: 49:22

She was saying, basically, like for your, for your wellbeing. I'm just reminding you, you don't have to step on stage.

Speaker 2: 49:29

It's so. I feel like she probably said that with a very specific person in mind, of somebody that is like talking with and interacting with. You're probably right. Like is trying to get on stage. I think certain times statements like that are hard because they're so differently interpreted by different people. It's interesting because, as you were like kind of talking about her, I was thinking in my mind of, like, why do I compete and I know this sounds so like basic, but also really important to hear is I compete because I truly love being on stage and I love the process leading up to it, and the process leading up to it is part of my life. It's so integral in my life and so for me, competing on stage gives me the opportunity to.

Speaker 2: 50:21

I grew up doing cheerleading gymnastics. Like I like being on a stage. I like being judged. I don't know what that says about me as a person, but that's part of what I like being on a stage. I like being judged. I don't know what that says about me as a person, but that's part of what I like. But that's why I say, like my husband will never compete Chris doesn't like that so he might do all of the nutrition stuff, workout stuff leading up to being on stage.

Speaker 2: 50:39

But it does not make or break you as a person and your value of a person, whether you get on stage or not. And for a lot of people who I know personally friends, people that I've worked with in the past it's like I need to get on stage to prove something and that does not need to happen. If you want to get on stage because you want to go through the experience of it all, if you like. I mean, quite frankly, what it boils down to is you are stepping on stage, you're doing a lot, a lot, a lot of work, stepping on stage, wearing close to nothing and getting judged by strangers. I mean, that's what's happening. And when you like put it like that, you're like do I want that? Do I need that?

Speaker 2: 51:21

Because, again, there's the self-critical piece of somebody who's going to tell you like well, your physique needs a little more of this, a little bit less of that, as the judge's feedback for the sport.

Speaker 2: 51:31

But if you take that personally, you're like well, I worked so hard and I put in my butt these months leading up to it and you take that as a personal attack and not somebody objectively looking at a physique on stage that you know we talked about the nutrition piece after a show, but that is a whole other piece of somebody is like devaluing all the work that I put in. They're not. They're just looking objectively at your physique and saying why did your physique come in behind this person's physique? They had more developed glutes, they were tighter through their midsection. That component of it is really important to understand that, when it all boils down to it, you are going to be wearing next to nothing on stage and somebody is going to judge your physique, which is all of the hard work and effort that you put in, and if you can look at that objectively, great. But most people can't.

Speaker 1: 52:25

We did that objectively Great, but most people can't, I think really a conversation you and I had I don't know if it was in DC or if it was on Zoom, but you really did educate me on the whole thing. I don't even view it as I really see you as a race, race car driver or you know what, just one of those athletes who are being judged on the millisecond on the you know, like if, if you, if Mike Michael Phelps was just a tiny bit slower by a hundredth of a second, he would have lost.

Speaker 1: 53:00

You know things like that. So it's the same exact thing. It's um, but you're, but also for Michael Phelps, and also for Hamilton. And also your mindset has to be very, very resilient, very spot on. Otherwise, don't go into competitions in general.

Speaker 2: 53:22

Correct. That is yes. I think that is like a great blanket statement across the board is if you are not in that mindset, it's going to be really hard. It's hard anyways, it's going to be really hard, yep, yep. This was such a fun, enlightening conversation. I loved every second of it and I want to make sure that people listening to this it doesn't mean that you absolutely should or absolutely shouldn't compete, but it's thinking about what does it actually entail and am I able to handle that? And I think that's what most people don't understand and get in the process.

Speaker 1: 54:11

And so I guess, with that, if I were a, you know, I'm just me and I and I come and I want to talk to Virginia at body mass and I want to say you know, like I really want to compete. So what do you do? What do you do with that? And I'm sure people have actually said that to you. Yep, great question.

Speaker 2: 54:35

So a lot of it is understanding what does the timeline and the requirement of that timeline look like? And for most people the timeline is a lot longer. It is not just the prep but, like what I had said earlier, the ebbs and flows of leading into prep, of going through fat loss cycles and going through muscle building cycles. What does the reality of the timeframe look like and what is the commitment during that timeframe and can you commit to that? And it's hard.

Speaker 2: 55:04

It took me a year and a half to hire a coach before I decided I was actually going to step on stage. I wanted to. I was kind of like exploring this but I wasn't mentally ready to commit to that. And so I think it's understanding not just what does this look like in terms of like, okay, for a couple of years, but like, oh, you've got a wedding during that time, not a great time to do it. Oh, you want to have kids, that that's going to be really hard. And not to say you can't still go through these like fat loss and muscle building cycles.

Speaker 2: 55:36

But if your goal is to step on stage, what is? What does that actually look like with where you're at right now? Maybe somebody comes in. There was somebody that came in for a dexa like a month ago, never competed before but he was a former d1 wrestler and he has like an insane physique and what his body, how his body was responding just in a short term of not prepping but working with the coach, he could step on stage a lot quicker than most people and and so it's understanding what that timeline looks like. So I don't necessarily try to talk people out of and so it's understanding what that timeline looks like. So I don't necessarily try to talk people out of it, but I try to explain what the reality of that is. So then it's like, okay, whether you're working with a coach or on your own, go through these cycles, then six months reconvene, let's see where you're at and see what the goal is.

Speaker 1: 56:21

then Smart, probably some people. Probably, once you start explaining these things, some people are like no, I'm not, no, I'm out, right, right. But that you learned that now, exactly, exactly, a hundred percent. Um, thank you, You're welcome. So much I I. I just love talking to you, I love having you on the show. One of the things that I also believe that drives you this is just my assumption is that data is kind of being a scientist on yourself and also that's kind of that healthy mindset of where you're where. When a judge says something, you're like taking it down as data.

Speaker 2: 57:06

Yes, absolutely, and that's why the DEXA is so valuable Like I could do a whole episode on this. But why the DEXA data is so valuable? Because if a judge says your glutes need to be bigger, I know exactly where I need to gain lean mass, literally statistically, on a piece of paper. I know if they say you need to be like tighter in your midsection, I know exactly where I need to lose fat pounds from on that piece of paper, so I can correlate a physique here that is very subjective to this data, which is cool.

Speaker 1: 57:37

And that's actually the reason why I think, hearing from you and not someone who you know this is, this is what they do as a hobby, but, like you, really, this is your profession. You lead people through the processes, you do them yourselves, yourself I think, um, that is just what is so invaluable and and so enlightening, and so thank you.

Speaker 2: 58:02

You're very welcome. Thank you, dee, I appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 58:05

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