Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey Daniel Herman. How are you doing? I'm very well.

Speaker 2: 0:03

D cats. How are you doing?

Speaker 1: 0:08

I'm good, I'm good, People enjoy when we chat, which I really don't understand, because you know, sometimes you know you just give me a hard time.

Speaker 1: 0:23

But maybe that's what they like, maybe, um, but the truth of the matter is, in all honesty, uh, you know that I have the utmost respect, uh, for what you do for your company. Um, I mean you as a person on a personal level. We'll put that aside, and so I want us to talk about supplements today, because, welcome to Bodyholic with Dee. No fads, just facts. I'm Dee and I'm here to help you ditch the noise and build a life you love. Let's go, oh, but wait, I'm not a doctor, so use your common sense. Now let's dive in Currently, in Bodyholic, it's actually the end of the Bodyholic Protein Challenge.

Speaker 2: 1:17

Yep.

Speaker 1: 1:19

And I've been taking creatine by biosynergy actually.

Speaker 2: 1:23

As you should.

Speaker 1: 1:24

Exactly, and I'm understanding that more and more and more, and so I wanted us to, uh, I wanted us to actually hear from someone who is behind these, these supplements, and someone who actually understands, uh, more than most people, people. And so I would want to start with, maybe, just a little bit of background about biosynergy itself.

Speaker 2: 1:51

Sure. So thank you for the kindest introduction. Basically, biosynergy I started in 1997, so nearly 30 years ago now and the reason, reason for that I went from being very unfit, unhealthy, overweight kind of teenager to then going to university getting the fitness bug. Won't go into the reasons why, but I guess growing up in the 80s probably inspired a little bit like by Van Damme, rocky, etc. Etc. And Schwar, et cetera, and Schwarzenegger obviously.

Speaker 2: 2:26

So I started making up my own protein shakes with raw eggs, milk, peanut butter and just zhuzhing it up in a Really yeah, yeah and trying to eat lots of chicken and eggs. And my goal initially was to bench press 50 kilos, um, which you know, I'm pleased to say, I did actually achieve before last week. Um, and I ended up and I said I went from being this really overweight, uninterested in fitness, health, sport kind of person to somebody that was quite into it. And then there was a tv show that was here I think it was in america as well, but it was here called gladiators and I got it into my head. I wanted to get on there as a contender. So I started training a lot harder, uh, being mindful of what I was eating, trying to get into the gym five times a week having more of my raw egg shakes.

Speaker 2: 3:22

And then a friend of mine said oh, another somebody he knew owned a sports nutrition company. He said let's stop doing these egg shakes, just go and buy protein powder and some other supplements. So I did that and, uh, I grew up. My dad was a retail pharmacist, so I kind of grown up around pills and powders and I showed him and he saw the, the product catalog I was looking at and he was very disapproving. This isn't being proven scientifically. This is nonsense. Blah, blah, blah. Um, whether it was that or the fact the product wasn't that great, I didn't seem to be benefiting, as I was promised by this product that I would do. And then it so happened myself, the guy that introduced me to this product and the guy that owned that uh brand were all in the same gym together at one time and I just finished doing a set, saw this guy went up to him and I said look, I've been using your product. Doesn't seem to be working for me. And he went fuck off, I'm doing a lat pull down. So I went in my head fuck you, I'm starting a sports nutrition company. So I was just about to go to law school at this point decided not to stupidly and my dad will never let me forget it and ended up qualifying as a nutritionist, a PET and an SAQ coach and came up with our first product, which was actually Creatine Plus, which was the first creatine product in a capsule and in a two-phase pack.

Speaker 2: 4:48

So all the research back in the 90s and still a lot today, talks about doing a creatine loading and then doing a maintenance phase. So I wanted to make this really easy for people to do by putting it into a capsule so it's very measurable and convenient. But also in the phase two we added an ingredient called chitosan, which is now gaining actually a lot of more publicity because of the whole glp1 thing, because chitosan actually helps. It's a natural fiber that helps restrict how much you're going to eat by swelling up. So there's lots of really good research around that ingredient. So the idea was most people want to improve their performance but also reduce their body fat at the same time. So creatine despite what people may promise it, doesn't actually put on muscle. What it does primarily is it allows you to train harder and longer, improve your recovery time and, more recently, there's research around the cognitive benefits benefits for postmenopause or premenopause or women, because actually they tend to have less creatine naturally in their body. And then also people who tend to be following a flexitarian or vegetarian or vegan diet will not be getting any from their diet. And even if they were, the amount of red meat that you'd need to consume to get any measurable amount of creatine would be so high that it would be offset by the negative of the amount of cholesterol and fat you'd have to be consuming in terms of the meat itself.

Speaker 2: 6:14

So that was my first product and I've always been very research focused. So what I did was there was a guy I went to university with and his first job was actually working for the Ministry of Defence with new recruits into the army and looking at how they could improve their performance. So he ended up doing a study whereby he gave people the creatine and measured to see if their VO2, if their one rep max, improved their VO, vo2 max and strength and other markers, and fortunately that happened. So in the end basically he came to that study and with that I was really confident and placed an order with the contract manufacturer and started packing the stuff on my parents' dining room and then driving around trying to sell it. So that was the beginning. Trying to sell it, so that was the beginning. And then, soon after that, I developed a protein product which is pretty much the same as it is now, which was just with three ingredients whey protein isolate, a vitamin complex and a natural sweetener and flavor. And I guess that leads into the protein bit of your challenge.

Speaker 2: 7:24

And then, jumping ahead to 2012, we launched the first female-focused sports nutrition range, called Active Woman, and we decided although there were other women's ranges around they tended to be what I call a shrink it and pink it they basically got the men's product, put it on a pink label and then charge more for it. The men's product, put it on a pink label and then charge more for it. What we wanted to do is actually look at the specific requirements of female rather than men. So women are high risk of osteoporosis, they're also more likely to fall pregnant and therefore we wanted to add micronutrients into the protein powder that would support fetal brain development and also, with calcium and vitamin D, support bones as well. So, again, whether you're a young female going to the gym for the first time, or a postmenopausal, slightly older woman, or even a woman who's going through pregnancy. This product will support not only your protein needs, but also some other micronutrient needs that you might have, so we launched that in 2012. And I believe that's the product you've been using recently.

Speaker 1: 8:34

I loved hearing that background. I had no idea that the creatine was your first product. That whole journey is amazing, amazing, and the fact that people of companies at the time were just packaging it as something pink and then like this is better for women. I so appreciate that you didn't do that, as we are more likely than men to bear children.

Speaker 2: 9:02

This is true.

Speaker 1: 9:04

I don't know what's going to happen If you're listening to this in 2027, we might be that close. So you're telling me about, basically, the evolution of what you've been doing since until 2012. And now the market is so saturated I think from from looking from you know I'm not completely on the outside, but I am on the outside, um, and it seems almost oversaturated. So do you have to apply more meticulous scientific rigor now, or has it just always been?

Speaker 2: 9:50

That's really down to the individual brand. I think there's two types of sports and nutrition brands in my opinion. There's the ones that are founded by people such as myself, who are passionate about something and then see a gap or fall into it or do it out of frustration, and there's not many of those. I don't think around anymore. I think a lot of those guys were probably similar to me starting in the 90s and subsequently have exited in some capacity. And then you've got people that, thanks to those pioneers and certainly there's some that were extremely successful, like bill phillips for the as, and the guys that started metrics and us to a lesser extent helped build a category. So if you think back to the 90s, I think the whole category was worth maybe a billion globally. I think it's now worth, depending on who you believe, maybe a billion globally. I think it's now worth, depending on who you believe, 50 plus billion. So it's grown massively and I think when a category grows, what you get is you get people who want to see an opportunity from a purely commercial point of view and they develop products from a commercial point of view rather than from a big. So it becomes more of a marketing-led, rather a product led approach, I think, and then often what you'll also see is stuff. There's not very much new stuff, so there's some in different formats that might not have been around 20 or 30 years ago but in principle I think still the biggest uh category subcategory within sports nutrition is still protein powder and fundamentally that hasn't really changed. There's different types. I mean, the only real difference is probably the increase in the amount of uh, plant-based proteins, which was probably always there, but very, very much on the periphery and now grown. But ultimately whey based protein powders haven't really fundamentally changed in the last 30 years. I think where the change has happened is really in the how they've been marketed and also in the complexity and again, a lot of products now they use blends and they use a lot of sweeteners and fillers and things to create a product that is more less about function and more about less functional based, should we say.

Speaker 2: 12:17

The other thing that tends to happen and where I think we're different is that a lot of people rely on prevailing science to support the product claims rather than doing independent research on their own products.

Speaker 2: 12:32

So, although we haven't done that on all of our products, certainly on many of the core products over the years, whether it's the Creatine Plus originally, another product called Beta Performance, our dna kits and so on.

Speaker 2: 12:45

We tend to do proprietary research that's independently undertaken by different universities, to specifically support our product beyond the generic claim that can be made around, let's say, creatine or protein, um, and also we always try and deliver. And again, you know it's a journey, you never get it right all the time, but we try and offer a best-in-class product and if we're not doing best in class then there's always an opportunity to improve, whereas I think this tends to be on certainly a protein, at the moment where the protein prices have gone up 24 year on year for the last two years, a lot of people are now doing small like, are now doing shrinkage of the packaging and also diluting the amount of protein in the product by using different blends and so on. We've maintained our packaging size and also maintained the quality of the protein per serving. So, for example, on the Waybetter, over 90%, on the Active Woman, over 84% protein per 100 grams.

Speaker 1: 13:48

This is really, really, really important, because that's actually why I take your protein, that's why I recommend your protein, because the long ingredient list and you know, I the whole idea is to support muscle health and and muscle growth, and I that's absolutely like more and more research is showing how that is the key to longevity, and so to do people out of that is, you know, really a disservice on is an understatement, and so, uh, really look into what you are consuming in terms of supplements. If you're spending money on supplements I mean, if that's even a thing for you then you have to go for the highest quality.

Speaker 2: 14:42

Yeah, I mean for me it's always about and it applies to food as well is look at the back of pack. Often the front of pack can be misleading. So, for example, I see products that say 100% whey on the front of pack can be misleading. So, for example, I see products that say 100% whey on the front of pack and then you turn the pack over and actually 100% whey has been used in this product, but the product itself is not 100% whey. Right, it's looking at the nutritionals.

Speaker 2: 15:06

And, again, people often do different serving sizes, so you can't do a direct comparison on serving size. What you need to look at is the per 100 grams, the same way you would do with the food, to understand the amount of protein, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, amino acids, etc. That are in there in order to make an informed decisions. Um, and obviously you know there is a price consideration, so you've got to work out the value proposition. I would say that that if you're buying cheap, you're probably buying one scoop of quality is worth two of cheap. And again, when it comes to your health and your well-being, I think when you're looking at a marginal maybe cost to get the best product, when it's something that you're putting in your body. I think that's always worth the investment.

Speaker 1: 15:55

Absolutely, Especially because when you're not doing well, it's so costly, so you might as well just keep up your health and yeah. So a lot of things are going into from working out to fashion, to medicine. Uh, things are really moving into personalization and uh, with you, you have the DNA kit. Uh, you have the, the different protein, where you've really tailored it to overall women, Nope. So how do you mitigate the potential contraindications or adverse interactions? Because this is where things are going and I see that you're already on that train.

Speaker 2: 16:52

In terms of contraindication, I mean generally speaking. If you're talking about a contraindication from a pharmacological point of view is where something is going to have a negative effect on something else.

Speaker 1: 17:03

Yeah, like and. And also you know you're selling several supplements, so I'm wondering, like, if the combinations, the combinations, how do we go through or handle the combinations of the different supplements? You know? Let's take a really basic example. What if I want to take one day this protein and the next day that protein and I want to mix up different BCAAs that you sell and things like that? Just mix it up.

Speaker 2: 17:34

I think it's about need state. So, for example, like protein, if you're exercising or not exercising, who recommends between 0.8 and 2.5 grams of protein per kilo body weight. The 0.8 is assuming you're sedentary, the 2.5 is assuming you're active and depending on your age. So, for example, young children, older adults, actually need more protein as well, because for young children it's about development and for older adults it's about reducing the risk of things like sarcopenia, muscle wastage and also the fact that typically, as you get older, weirdly we tend to eat less on the whole as a generalization. So often some of the key nutrients that you need from your food you're not going to get because you're just not eating like you did in your 20s, 30s and 40s, um, or maybe even 50s in my case, um. So there's that to consider. The other thing is to look at um need state. So, for example, if you're uh doing a lot of hot weather training and it's endurance space, then an isotonic and electrolyte drink is probably a good idea, because you're going to get the carbohydrates you need to for your glycogen stores to give you the energy and then you get the uh electrolyte elements for recovery in terms of replacing lost fluids that you're going to have through sweat. If, however, for example, you're doing less endurance type stuff, then maybe a carbohydrate based product isn't what you need, because you're not going to get to that level of um where depletion where you're going to need it, so an electrolyte might be better. Equally, if you're not getting a lot of protein in your diet, taking BCAAs or glutamine pre-post-exercise is going to help with that muscle recovery. If you're not getting much creatine in your diet, which most of us won't be, then obviously taking creatine. So generally it's a bit like um training.

Speaker 2: 19:35

Just doing weight training is great. If you do weight training plus cardio, plus HIIT, plus yoga, plus Thai tea, yes, the benefits are going to be marginal, but overall the the collective benefit is going to be greater than just doing any one of those things. But if you're only going to do one, then at least do one consistently, and I think the same the same applies really to to diet and supplementation is that you can layer things on and the improvement from not having any purpose. I think being deficient protein to then being optimized in protein will be quite a big improvement. By then having extra things on top, the benefit won't be as great. So you're going to get marginal benefit.

Speaker 2: 20:21

And then again, obviously, if you take too much protein, you're just going to excrete it, so you get diminishing marginal utility. So it's just working out where you are from a diet and exercise and lifestyle point of view and then layering on different products. And again, it might also depend on seasonality, climate, ethnicity, gender, et cetera, age. So all of these things are going to have an impact on the sort of micronutrients and macronutrients that you need and when you should be taking them.

Speaker 1: 20:56

Right, I'm thinking to myself. Do you talk to people? Do you have a representative who actually navigates people through what they should be purchasing and consuming? Or is it actually based on the DNA kit? And anybody who wants to understand that more can just pop over to the episode. I'll link it.

Speaker 2: 21:15

I think there's several things. So one, we're always happy to get emails, phone calls here and talk to people, which is kind of a bit old school. Secondly, I think it's so important I don't think you can undervalue it and obviously, with AI coming, the likelihood is at some point we'll be able to enable AI to help people navigate better what they need. The second thing that we do is we've got a quiz on our website. It's helpful, it's a tool. It's not a replacement for necessarily talking to somebody or getting independent advice, but certainly it can help you make a more informed decision. Obviously, with the dna kit, that's the ultimate in uh personalization and giving you that kind of roadmap for what you need for you. But then again, there's also some context around that. So, for example, you might find, let's say, that BCAAs are not beneficial for you from a genetic point of view, but then they become beneficial based on a need state. So even when you get the DNA results, arguably you need somebody to help interpret that based on what your current lifestyle and goals are.

Speaker 1: 22:31

Mm-hmm, so talk to people, qualified, qualified.

Speaker 2: 22:39

That's the key, I think, is there's a lot of experts, particularly on social media, who may well indeed be experts, but sometimes they've got vested interests in saying and doing things interested interests in saying and doing things and sometimes they may not actually have the qualification that you believe they might have. And having a six pack does not make you an expert on all things nutrition, fitness and diet.

Speaker 1: 23:08

You're touching on one of the points that really I feel like I'm Don Quixote just you know fighting the windmills on that one, absolutely. So I just want to share a little bit about my journey. The last four weeks I have been enjoying the women's activate protein uh, thoroughly In fact. Daniel, you even asked me, um, if I like it, and I actually said, you know, I really don't like it in a shake, I really like it just with water, Like that's actually how good it is. It's just shake it up in water, don't add anything to it, and it's perfect. Just shake it up in water, don't add anything to it, and it's perfect.

Speaker 1: 24:04

Um, and also I've been pushing very, very hard in my strength training, yeah, so you know, I think the whole combination has been really optimal. Uh, and the big, big, big change for me was that I've been taking creatine. Big change for me was that I've been taking creatine, which for me, is like a really big deal. I, I, I don't think I was opposed to it, I just I was like this isn't for me. And the more I read about the cognitive benefits, uh, which is really something that I spend a lot of time worried about, you know, getting older and I guess, but I'm holding them, you know.

Speaker 1: 24:41

So I'm like where's the creatine? So, um, I wanted to hear a little bit about what you have to say about creatine, and now that I also know that it's your first product, uh, it's even more exciting and I don't know. I think maybe my recovery is faster than usual, but it also could be psychosomatic.

Speaker 2: 25:05

Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think creatine, for the majority of people, will have a benefit in terms of recycling ATP, improving anaerobic energy, allowing you to do more in less time. So for me, when I developed it, it was thinking about on the whole, most people aren't athletes. They're recreational fitness lovers, users, sports people. So what you want to do is optimize the amount of time that you're able to devote to your given sport or exercise, and that's what creatine allows you to do, so you can rest less and do more in the same period of time, and that in itself will allow you to achieve your physical or performance goal quicker, because you're going to be doing more in less time. That's the simple thing and that you know.

Speaker 2: 25:55

I think I read somewhere the other day. The first creatine studies date back to 1919, so it's not like so, even when I, if you think that I've been selling it for nearly 30 years, the amount of people that consume the creatine and the amount of research that has been undertaken on creatine is by far the biggest, most all-encompassing experiment that's ever been done on a supplement, I should imagine. You know, I don't think there's anything being used so much, and it's exploding, and it's exploding now.

Speaker 2: 26:31

Yeah, I mean, I read something the other day. I think only about 30% of women are even considering it, but actually, as a percentage, women are more in need of it than men, so there's a huge amount of growth. Um, yes, yes, yes for that, but for that reason, in terms of the cognition benefits and the other benefits. So there's, you know people, there's research being published now about the benefits for beauty, for your hair, for cognition, and I think that's the good thing about having a product that's been around for so long. We know it's safe and it is efficacious at delivering on the performance side of things. So let's now try and explore what else this amazing product does. So there's actually even a study that's been shown that, you know, by giving it to children or having it during pregnancy is going to help with development of the brain as well, even during pregnancy.

Speaker 2: 27:26

So I think you've got to watch this space, and I think the other thing is again like when it comes to anything is like who's publishing the research? So try and use people like pub med there's like some more authoritative places to go and get your research rather than pop culture research, uh. So I think that's really important. You know, you look at the works of creda uh, mourn, um. Those are probably the two of the biggest guys that have been that I was talking to 30 years ago that are still conducting research. Now you can drink another guy. So look for again quality research and also look for again dosages. So look out, for, you know, is the product you're delivering. So we've got a product in itself. It provides one gram of creatine. It's our creatine effervescent product. You need to take a couple of those a day for to have the cognition benefits.

Speaker 1: 28:24

But you're already taking five, five grams, if I'm not mistaken.

Speaker 2: 28:27

It's depend no, it's one and a half for cognition. Again, there's lots of different, different quantities for different outcomes. So if you the five-gram thing comes back to the performance side, so there's two bodies of research. One was do a five-day loading of 20 grams a day to increase the creatine store in your body. So you've got between 80 to 100 grams of creatine by taking 100 grams a day over a five-day period. Sorry, 20 grams a day over a five-day period.

Speaker 2: 28:58

Sorry, 20 grams a day over a five-day period 100 grams you're able to increase your creatine store and then you take a smaller dosage to maintain that store, allowing the benefits to occur. The other way of doing it is what I call the drip-drip method, taking five grams a day over a prolonged period of time, which will get you to the same goal, but it'll just take a bit longer to get there. And then, if you're looking at cognition, beauty, health benefits, um, it's really one and a half grams to probably three or five grams for that benefit. So again, you can look at it holistically. So you might be having your creatine uh gummies and then you might be having your creatine powder, your creatine effervescent, but for different reasons. So the effervescent product you might be taking for the electrolytes and the creatine, but because you've already taken the gummy or the powder or the capsules, your overall creatine dosage is meeting both the cognition and also the performance side. Nice, so it's just nice, I don't take the gummies.

Speaker 1: 30:05

I just want to share with everyone. I take the pills because I'm you know, I'm old school, I'm raw. I don't mess around with red gummies.

Speaker 2: 30:15

Yeah, I mean, look to be fair. The creatine capsules was our first product. I still stand by that as probably the best one.

Speaker 1: 30:23

But some people don't take it right.

Speaker 2: 30:25

It's about again, need state and people. So you know, not everybody. You know my kids love the gummies because they don't really want to. I don't. They don't want to take capsules. Some people prefer the creatine boost powder because they want to have something they can have during training. That's going to also provide them with electrolytes and an isotonic elements. Some people want to have, uh, the electrolyte tablets because they find it convenient. So it's about it's a bit like training. There's no point saying you have to do bench press with dumbbells or barbell if you're never going to do that. If you're not going to do that, then do dumbbells or do the totally.

Speaker 1: 31:06

So it's about it goes it goes back to the individualization, the personalization, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 31:10

I just wanted to tell her like show everybody what a badass I am.

Speaker 1: 31:20

You know that. I think that was a great way to just scan through supplements and you know just how to approach it. You know understand what you need, what your needs are, and understand it in an evolving way, like we are all. Um, your body goes through so many changes regularly, so, uh, there's that and there. And also, you know, don't go to your Tik TOK guru to discover the latest, but actually take the time and really understand what is the supplement that's best for you.

Speaker 2: 32:05

According to research, and also the other thing is bear in mind that you change. So, for example, your goal today might be weight management and weight loss. You achieve that goal goal and then all of a sudden, your goal is you know I'm going to do a marathon, or I'm going to do a another type of competition, or I want to become a bodybuilder or or so on, or you're at a certain age. So you know it's not a one-time decision, it's something you've got to reassess, in the same way that you reassess your diet and your training and everything in your life. You know it's a constant, constant flux.

Speaker 1: 32:42

Yes, I'm going to. I'm going to give a little caveat to that because I you're absolutely right and but also going through a change every Monday and Thursday. You know, I've had clients where it's like, all right, we've got to really focus now on just strength training. But by Thursday you know that's a Monday and then by Thursday they're like, all right, we've got to, we've got to focus on my running, and it's. It's actually the reason for that is because of lack of patience. You know, just wait a minute. And I think the same thing happens with supplementation. You know, just wait a minute, keep being super repetitive for a little while, so that you can actually achieve that goal that you set out to achieve.

Speaker 2: 33:27

Great, you've got to take it every night.

Speaker 2: 33:35

Right, even my daughter at the moment she's doing exams and I've given her some ashwagandha to help her relax at night and also some limes to help her study, and she's like I took it yesterday. It didn't work. I said how many days did you take it? And I was like you can't expect results. I mean certain things like a pre-workout or an isotonic drink or a lick like if you're already thirsty. That's immediate, you're going to get immediate results. Other things you've got to give it time for it to work. And, and the same you know goes for diet and exercise. You know you can't go vegan one. You know you can't go keto or 16a or something for a day and expect a transformation. It's something you've got to maintain for weeks or months or possibly years for it to take an impact.

Speaker 1: 34:25

I always talk about how the one thing you really can't fake is the effort you put into your workouts. Like it shows, it shows's not. Yeah, absolutely Well, thank you so much for talking about this and walking us through this. I feel like that was really, really valuable. I also want to say that this was not sponsored. I really actually believe that biosynergy is just an awesome, awesome company, so let's, let's make sure that that comes across and, uh, you know, don't take Daniel's word for anything because he owns biosynergy, but definitely.

Speaker 2: 35:09

Yeah, never take my word for it, always check.

Speaker 1: 35:12

Absolutely, absolutely, and uh, and I believe that, um, you'll be as impressed as I am, all right.

Speaker 2: 35:20

Thank you, Thank you Di. What is it, Dee? I forget.

Speaker 1: 35:27

I also forget At this point. I totally forgot. All right, that was awesome. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 35:34

Thank you and make it happen.

Speaker 1: 35:37

And, by the way, what's the throwback for this thursday? What's the hashtag throwback? Throwback thursday oh, that's it that's it all right cool or thoughtful.

Speaker 2: 35:47

Thursday all right, friend, under a bus thursday oh thankful.

Speaker 1: 35:52

Thursday okay all right, is it the one day that you don't have a fitness hashtag? Or thigh thursday? Okay, there you go. Yep, posterior thigh thursday there you go all right. Thanks so much, daniel have a great weekend, you do okay, hey. Thanks so much for tuning in and if this hit home, please share it with your crew. Likes, comments, shares. Show your loved ones you care. A bodyholic production.